Lord willing and the creek don't rise
November 9, 2017 12:37 PM   Subscribe

After cathartic Democratic gains on Tuesday, 2017 awaits one last big federal contest -- Alabama's December 12th special election to fill A.G. Jeff Sessions' seat in the U.S. Senate. The normally determinative Republican primary was riven by divisions, with the controversial theocratic ex-judge Roy Moore defeating establishment-backed Luther Strange. The Democrats, meanwhile, nominated respected US attorney Doug Jones, best known for successfully prosecuting the Klansmen behind the horrific 16th Street Baptist Church bombing. Still, Moore was widely seen as the narrow favorite... until today's bombshell WaPo story in which multiple conservative women independently confirmed Moore sexually harassed them in the 70s -- some as young as 14. While the Moore campaign rejects the story as "fake news", GOP senators are abandoning him in droves, with talk of mounting a write-in campaign for primary loser Luther Strange. With just a month until election day, could deep-red Alabama elect a progressive Democrat for the first time in more than twenty years? posted by Rhaomi (1089 comments total) 77 users marked this as a favorite
 
Get that hypocritical homophobe. Get 'em.
posted by mudpuppie at 12:40 PM on November 9 [23 favorites]


FYI, it's not just "sexual harassment". Per the WaPo article Moore sexually assaulted those women.
posted by phack at 12:41 PM on November 9 [56 favorites]


May his victims find peace and justice, and may Roy Moore crawl into a dark hole and never emerge to stink up American politics ever again.
posted by SansPoint at 12:41 PM on November 9 [23 favorites]


Guess "do not covet" has an exemption clause "unless she's a teenager dressed as Santa's helper" that only assholes can see.

But Paul Ryan and friends will embrace him with open arms if they can get a tax cut out of it.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 12:44 PM on November 9 [6 favorites]


I'm from Alabama. Moore's going to Washington.
posted by RolandOfEld at 9:28 PM on September 26 [5 favorites +] [!]

Whelp. Did not see that coming.
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:46 PM on November 9 [88 favorites]


I would love to believe this is possible (and next week, after we finish moving, I'm hoping to do some phonebanking for Doug Jones so it's not like I've given up hope) but seeing how my Republican officemate who "doesn't support Roy Moore but" reacted I worry this isn't going to change any votes. He's already awful, everyone knows he's awful, we already elected a known sexual predator, and I am afraid this won't change the minds of people who support him. I don't think people care enough about vulnerable young women (and men) for this to matter. I've already heard "it was a different time" and "well three of them were over the age of consent, sure they were young but he was a lawyer who knew the risks so the one who says she was fourteen...". I was also informed that it is "open season on men" which, like, it's been open season on women for thousands of years and you never seemed to care.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 12:46 PM on November 9 [71 favorites]


Even the defences are awful, basically that he "dated" 14 year olds but it was all very "pure" and he read them poetry and nothing bad happened.

Landslide victory.
posted by Artw at 12:47 PM on November 9 [9 favorites]


Thoughts, in order:

1. I don't think that your average Republican voter or Republican politician cares at all that Roy Moore sexually assaulted teenagers in the '70s. They should care, but I don't believe they do.

2. I think it's pretty likely that there will be more-recent allegations, because people who do that kind of thing don't typically stop doing that kind of thing.

3. There are plenty of mainstream Republicans who would be delighted to have an excuse to get rid of Moore.

4. A write-in campaign for Strange plus a surge among black voters (and other Democratic voters) could actually make Jones viable. That isn't something I ever thought I would say, but there you go.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:47 PM on November 9 [13 favorites]


Is this an Alabama thread, or the next link in the eternal US politics shit marathon?
posted by paper chromatographologist at 12:47 PM on November 9 [7 favorites]


I think it’s shit marathons all the way down.
posted by corb at 12:48 PM on November 9 [105 favorites]




I guess what I'm saying is that I would love for this to make me feel optimistic (and of course I'm going to keep working to do what I can) but it actually makes me feel more pessimistic because if this just straight up doesn't matter it continues to normalize powerful men sexually assaulting girls and young women and getting away with it. I'm just tired.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 12:49 PM on November 9 [30 favorites]


I think it’s shit marathons all the way down.
Someone fed the turtles Skyline Chili.
posted by delfin at 12:49 PM on November 9 [31 favorites]


Is this an Alabama thread, or the next link in the eternal US politics shit marathon?

Would assume former.
posted by Artw at 12:49 PM on November 9 [1 favorite]


Hmm, didn't know about the multiple accusations against Roy Moore - thought it was just the one.
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:49 PM on November 9


There are multiple allegations in the Washington Post story, although none as serious as the primary one.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:50 PM on November 9


(Everyone where I'm living now greets me with a blank questioning look when I say, "Lord willing and the creek don't rise.") /derail
posted by clawsoon at 12:50 PM on November 9 [18 favorites]


Can we get Christopher Plummer to replace him, too?
posted by zarq at 12:51 PM on November 9 [33 favorites]


There's always multiple accusations - it's a pattern of behavior with these people, not a one off.
posted by Artw at 12:51 PM on November 9 [21 favorites]


Imagine the reaction from the right if Moore was a high-school teacher.
posted by rhizome at 12:51 PM on November 9 [6 favorites]


The Moore-Jones Senate election is gonna be about turnout, especially considering that Moore also has said he won't debate Jones.

This probably won't change people's minds who were already going to vote for Moore, but it might change the minds or encourage people who were thinking about not voting, to go ahead and vote.
posted by tittergrrl at 12:52 PM on November 9 [6 favorites]




Noting that Moore references the "National Democrat Party" in his denial.
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:52 PM on November 9 [20 favorites]


I'm with Arbitrary and Capricious. I think Moore could molest a child live on TV (in lieu of a debate) and he'd still win because Jesus and Liberals.

I don't have a lot of faith in a lot of America these days. But I never had any faith in Alabama even when I was a young, starry-eyed idealist.
posted by Naberius at 12:52 PM on November 9 [11 favorites]


The Moore-Jones Senate election is gonna be about turnout, especially considering that Moore also has said he won't debate Jones.

I hope Jones just goes ahead and shows up to debate events without him and does Q&A with the moderator or the audience.
posted by Gelatin at 12:53 PM on November 9 [27 favorites]


Moore also has said he won't debate Jones.

Hows that going down? May tried that in the UK and it was a big disaster for her. Will Jones be getting the airtime anyway?
posted by Artw at 12:54 PM on November 9 [1 favorite]


Josh Marshall at TPM: "The most likely upshot of all of this is that Moore becomes too radioactive for national Republicans too endorse him and possibly to get national money but still remains on the ticket and running for the office."
posted by MonkeyToes at 12:54 PM on November 9 [4 favorites]


Hows that going down? May tried that in the UK and it was a big disaster for her.

Republican. Alabama.
posted by Justinian at 12:54 PM on November 9 [14 favorites]


But I never had any faith in Alabama even when I was a young, starry-eyed idealist.

This is MeFi so we'll have people complaining about unfair stereotypes of Alabama, but, um, really not doing well with all of this, guys.
posted by Artw at 12:55 PM on November 9 [5 favorites]


Of course, Democrats are the ones running a child trafficking ring out of a pizza parlor, and atheists/pagans/etc. are a bunch of degenerate libertines, and Muslims hate and oppress women.

I'm just shaking my head in bewilderment as to how people can hold so much cognitive dissonance.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 12:56 PM on November 9 [43 favorites]


RolandOfEld: "I'm from Alabama. Moore's going to Washington.
posted by RolandOfEld at 9:28 PM on September 26 [5 favorites +] [!]

Whelp. Did not see that coming.
"

This is why I tell people not to say stuff WILL happen!
posted by Chrysostom at 12:57 PM on November 9 [4 favorites]


Every Republican:
1) This is Fake news
2) As a father and husband, I am concerned and outraged
3) If these allegations are true, he should step aside
4) Look, he’s not perfect and I have many differences with him, but I support the nominee
5) We are all focused on tax cuts
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:57 PM on November 9 [101 favorites]


Projection. Thieves think everyone steals.
posted by Autumnheart at 12:57 PM on November 9 [26 favorites]


it's been open season on women for thousands of years and you never seemed to care

THIS. over and over and over and over and over...
posted by supermedusa at 12:57 PM on November 9 [41 favorites]


I am utterly convinced that there is literally nothing that Trump (or a Trump Associate, Trump Family Member or Trump Surrogate) could ever do or say that would change the hearts or minds of his followers. They are one issue voters. And the issue is White Supremacy. As long as they believe he believes America is meant to be a Whites Only Nation, they will support him and all politicians that follow his lead. Moore will not lose a single vote from Trump Supporters. Other folks however . . .
posted by pjsky at 12:59 PM on November 9 [32 favorites]


This is why I tell people not to say stuff WILL happen!

Counting on A) a sexual abuse scandal that's B) big enough to sway Republicans C) far enough to attempt a write-in campaign seems to be a damn narrow window of hope but I certainly applaud your optimism. Having lived there and seeing what the Trump wave has done (and not changed) in peers and acquaintances (from all across the spectrum, be it poor country HS friends or educated college types in a college town to family members that spew ignorance and absurdity) means I'm far, far less optimistic than I once was.
posted by RolandOfEld at 1:01 PM on November 9 [3 favorites]


Moore will not lose a single vote from Trump Supporters. Other folks however . . .

Sadly, Alabamans voted 63% for Trump. So...
posted by Justinian at 1:01 PM on November 9 [3 favorites]




AL state auditor defends Moore: "Take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus.”
posted by zakur at 1:02 PM on November 9 [60 favorites]


Seen on FB: Fox News: "Weinstein is guilty and a pig!" Spacey is a pig and guilty! All those Hollywood types are guilty pigs." What about Moore? "Fake news! That woman is a liar!"
posted by azpenguin at 1:02 PM on November 9 [37 favorites]


From the last thread:

So the state's position is that it's too late to remove him from the ballot but if the majority of voters picks him the state will straight up shred the election result on the Republican party's say-so? They can do that? Because that's an unsettling precedent, and also today is bonkers.

Reasonable people can certainly disagree with it, but it doesn't seem bonkers to me.

He didn't run in his own right, he ran as the nominee of a party. He could have done the legwork to qualify for the ballot on his own, but that would have been an expensive pain in the ass (and then he wouldn't appear as the Republican, obvs). If AL law allows the party organization to withdraw a nomination without the nominee's consent, then it does and I guess maybe he shoulda done that work after all.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:03 PM on November 9 [5 favorites]


*Alabamians
posted by rhizome at 1:03 PM on November 9


if this just straight up doesn't matter it continues to normalize powerful men sexually assaulting girls and young women and getting away with it. I'm just tired.

It's always been normalized. What we're getting now is a willingness for the stories to be told at all. Changing the normalization happens later. And yeah, it's exhausting.

The good news is, the reactions aren't likely to be "those damn sluts are nothing but liars, or delusional gold-diggers." They're not likely to be, "she should be happy such a fine man paid attention to her at all!" And not even, "he's such an awesome guy; he would never!" Instead, we're getting "long time ago... nothing really bad happened... he's a devoted husband now... *mumble mumble* tax cuts..."

It'll take a while for the reaction to be, "omg I could not support such a horrible person in a position of power," but we'll get there. It'll just... take a while. And more victims coming forward. And more #metoo campaigns.

This isn't useless, even if it doesn't keep him out of office. The window of acceptability shifts a little more with each woman who comes forward to denounce her abuser, with each news site or station that's willing to publish an honest account.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:03 PM on November 9 [48 favorites]


it's been open season on women for thousands of years and you never seemed to care

THIS. over and over and over and over and over...


I literally said this out loud to him when we were "discussing" the news because I couldn't stop myself and I think now he wants a safe space?
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 1:04 PM on November 9 [20 favorites]


"Take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus.”

Erm... I seem to recall an important aspect of Joseph and Mary's relationship that complicates this analogy a bit
posted by 0xFCAF at 1:05 PM on November 9 [156 favorites]


AL state auditor defends Moore

[shakes head] Jesus, Joseph, and Mary.
posted by uncleozzy at 1:05 PM on November 9 [15 favorites]


[To be clear, folks, let's try and keep this as an Moore/Jones/Alabama senate seat thread and not as a general catch-all thread; someone else can make a new one of those soon.]
posted by cortex at 1:06 PM on November 9 [9 favorites]


The one thing we can console ourselves with, I guess, is it is not possible for a far right pedophile republican senator to make votes in the senate that would in any way be worse than those made by a "regular" republican senator these days.
posted by Artw at 1:06 PM on November 9 [6 favorites]


He didn't run in his own right, he ran as the nominee of a party

Right, but the legal question would be: When you are voting, are you voting for "Candidate Roy Moore" or are you voting for "The nominee of the Republican party, whomever that might be." I would argue, and I am pretty certain the courts would agree, that you are voting for "Candidate Roy Moore".
posted by Justinian at 1:06 PM on November 9 [5 favorites]


Yeah, is the claim that Moore is like Joseph, who was engaged to a teenager who bore someone else's kid, or that Moore is like the god who knocked up a teenager engaged to someone else?
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:07 PM on November 9 [6 favorites]


I guess, is it is not possible for a far right pedophile republican senator to make votes in the senate that would in any way be worse than those made by a "regular" republican senator these days.

Hell, being a pedophile qualifies him for leadership if the past is any indication.
posted by Justinian at 1:07 PM on November 9 [5 favorites]


As Momus once sang:
"Never underestimate Mary,
the original virginal bride.
Interpretations may vary,
but I say God was her piece on the side."
posted by perhapses at 1:09 PM on November 9 [6 favorites]


@tparti: McConnell-aligned super pac Senate Leadership Fund -- "There is no place in our party for sexual predators."

Have...they've never heard of the head of their own party have they?
posted by zachlipton at 1:09 PM on November 9 [30 favorites]


The good news is, the reactions aren't likely to be "those damn sluts are nothing but liars, or delusional gold-diggers." They're not likely to be, "she should be happy such a fine man paid attention to her at all!"

These are almost exactly what my "never-Trump" Republican officemate who "doesn't support Moore" said. I'll leave the thread now because I've already said a bunch of stuff but seriously, this is what he thinks. Whenever a woman is in the public eye be it Frederica Wilson or Maxine Waters or the woman who flicked off Trump from her bicycle he thinks she's seeking attention so she can get money. He thinks this woman is now going to get "$5,000 a pop" for doing interviews. People will fight absolutely desperately not to believe what women say and then get mad at us for pointing that out.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 1:09 PM on November 9 [65 favorites]


So are they arguing for a lowering of the age of consent here?
posted by Artw at 1:10 PM on November 9 [1 favorite]




This is MeFi so we'll have people complaining about unfair stereotypes of Alabama, but, um, really not doing well with all of this, guys.

Alabama is a deep red state. They are very conservative and pretty religious. Every person I've ever met from the state had a deep foundation in Christian theology, even if they weren't practicing. The thing to keep in mind is that Alabamans tend to be "traditional values" people, and they tend to be serious about that, similar to the way Mormons are.

So, I doubt this will go over well within the state's borders. With the average Alabama voter. Whether voters can rationalize it away (or will listen and agree when party hacks try to do so,) or hold their noses long enough to vote for Doug Jones is questionable. Nationally, the DNC has been doing the smart thing by keeping a low profile. That may end now, which would also affect the election's outcome.
posted by zarq at 1:11 PM on November 9


are you voting for "Candidate Roy Moore" or are you voting for "The nominee of the Republican party, whomever that might be."

I tend to agree with you - you vote for the candidate - but... if the ballots in your district had swapped the party labels for last year's presidential candidates, what would happen to those votes? Some people would scream that they intended to vote the party ticket and checked the box according to that, assuming that the names would get sorted out elsewhere; others would say they voted for the candidate. Either way, there would be a lawsuit and demands of recounts, with a lot of drama about "how do we actually count those?"

If the ballot lists the wrong candidate for the party, it's unclear what happens to those votes.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:11 PM on November 9 [1 favorite]


Domenici was 55 when he had the affair with 24 year old Michelle Laxalt, the daughter of his GOP colleague, Senator Paul Laxalt
jfc. 24yo women can consent. is it only called slut shaming if both people are the same age?

posted by j_curiouser at 1:13 PM on November 9


AL state auditor defends Moore: "Take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus.”

I really thought I was out of surprised faces. This year continues to provide...
posted by RolandOfEld at 1:14 PM on November 9 [36 favorites]


Alabama is a deep red state. They are very conservative and pretty religious. [...] So, I doubt this will go over well within the state's borders.

He can always have a Come To Jesus Moment, repent his sins, ask the Good Lord for forgiveness, and... who knows?
posted by Capt. Renault at 1:17 PM on November 9 [5 favorites]


Every person I've ever met from the state had a deep foundation in Christian theology, even if they weren't practicing.

AL state auditor defends Moore: "Take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus.”

??
posted by theodolite at 1:17 PM on November 9 [11 favorites]


I must have a different idea of what goes over well with conservative and religious people.
posted by Artw at 1:18 PM on November 9 [6 favorites]


I really thought I was out of surprised faces. This year continues to provide...

Republicans will defend anyone if it keeps them in power. Axe murderer. Child rapist. Newt Gingrich. Donald Trump. Etc., etc.
posted by zarq at 1:18 PM on November 9 [13 favorites]


> "The most likely upshot of all of this is that Moore becomes too radioactive for national Republicans too endorse him and possibly to get national money but still remains on the ticket and running for the office."

Which as we all know is the situation Trump was in before he lost the election.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:18 PM on November 9 [10 favorites]


Seriously crying with laughter that they trotted out the Immaculate Conception as an example of why maybe it's okay if an adult sometimes fucks a teenager. HOW IS THIS REAL
posted by potrzebie at 1:21 PM on November 9 [83 favorites]


But... but... that's not what the Immaculate Conception even is? If you're gonna be all Jesusy shouldn't you even know your own goddamn theology?
posted by Justinian at 1:23 PM on November 9 [23 favorites]


(spoiler: the IC refers to the conception of Mary, not the conception of Jesus.)
posted by Justinian at 1:24 PM on November 9 [39 favorites]


I know this one is a real long shot, but I tossed some money at Jones' campaign anyway, just in case.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:25 PM on November 9 [4 favorites]


Also the story of Jesus' conception is not a Zeus myth, YHVH did not incarnate into a swan or clone of Joseph or what-have-you and bone the Virgin Mary, she just got pregnant while remaining a virgin. THAT'S WHY SHE'S CALLED THAT.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:26 PM on November 9 [28 favorites]


There was a reference to the Immaculate Conception in one of the Twitter feeds too, so I feel like this might be worth pointing out if you are ever speaking to an Alabaman voter who might go Moore: 1- if they aren't Catholic, they won't care, because the immaculate conception is a thoroughly Catholic doctrine, and 2- if they are, they won't understand why you think that is relevant, because it refers to the conception of Mary (the idea is that she must have been born without original sin in order to be worthy of carrying Jesus).

On preview: see also Justinian, Chapter 170488 verse 7226270
posted by solotoro at 1:27 PM on November 9 [11 favorites]


If you're gonna be all Jesusy shouldn't you even know your own goddamn theology?
Forget it, Jake, They're Republicans.
posted by JohnFromGR at 1:28 PM on November 9 [33 favorites]


Jesus is about hating black people and that's it.
posted by Artw at 1:29 PM on November 9 [9 favorites]


“There’s just nothing immoral or illegal here,” Ziegler concluded. “Maybe just a little bit unusual.”

Getting someone below the age of consent to rub your underwear for sexual gratification is, in fact, illegal. I suggest the State Auditor performs an audit of his local library to confirm that laws do in fact exist.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:29 PM on November 9 [61 favorites]


There was a reference to the Immaculate Conception in one of the Twitter feeds too, so I feel like this might be worth pointing out if you are ever speaking to an Alabaman voter who might go Trump: 1- if they aren't Catholic, they won't care, because the immaculate conception is a thoroughly Catholic doctrine, and 2- if they are, they won't understand why you think that is relevant, because it refers to the conception of Mary (the idea is that she must have been born without original sin in order to be worthy of carrying Jesus).

Wait, then how did she conceive? I thought the whole point was that she was a virgin mother. What do Catholics call that?
posted by zarq at 1:29 PM on November 9 [1 favorite]


Virgin birth.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:30 PM on November 9 [4 favorites]


jesus rode dinosaurs and hunted nonbelievers with his modified for full automatic assault rifles
posted by poffin boffin at 1:30 PM on November 9 [18 favorites]


> AL state auditor defends Moore: "Take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus.”

I clicked on the link and I still can't believe it's [REAL]. But I do find it curious, the way he phrased "adult carpenter". That's - that sounds odd, right?
posted by RedOrGreen at 1:31 PM on November 9 [5 favorites]


There's also various opinions on whether or not Joseph ever canoodled Mary himself or whether the "brother of Jesus" mentioned in one Gospel was a metaphorical rather than literal brother. Either way, I think it's safe to say that Joseph was a better man than Moore could ever hope to be.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 1:31 PM on November 9 [4 favorites]


She just straight up turned into a dimensional gate one day.
posted by Artw at 1:31 PM on November 9 [13 favorites]


Virgin birth.

What do they call the conception of Jesus? Not his birth, the conception.
posted by zarq at 1:32 PM on November 9 [2 favorites]


Gateway Pundit has the next frontier: ‘Well actually the age of minority in 1979 was 12’

No link, but it’s on the front page.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:32 PM on November 9 [4 favorites]


@ddale8:
After a long pause, Alabama Bibb County Republican chairman Jerry Pow tells me he'd vote for Roy Moore even if Moore did commit a sex crime against a girl.

"I would vote for Judge Moore because I wouldn't want to vote for Doug," he says. "I'm not saying I support what he did."
posted by zachlipton at 1:32 PM on November 9 [53 favorites]


I clicked on the link and I still can't believe it's [REAL]. But I do find it curious, the way he phrased "adult carpenter". That's - that sounds odd, right?

He was saying its okay that Moore tried to diddle kids because Joseph totally did.

I wonder if they feel the same way about Mohammed. I'm sure they are internally consistent. Of course they are.
posted by Justinian at 1:33 PM on November 9 [10 favorites]


this discussion might fit better in the IC thread a couple of doors down and to the left
posted by localhuman at 1:33 PM on November 9 [1 favorite]


What do they call the conception of Jesus? Not his birth, the conception.

I don't believe we (Catholics) have a specific term for that. I guess I can still say we even though I'm an atheist Catholic.
posted by Justinian at 1:33 PM on November 9 [2 favorites]


Daniel Dale:
"It was 40 years ago," Alabama Marion County GOP chair David Hall tells me. "I really don't see the relevance of it. He was 32. She was supposedly 14. She's not saying that anything happened other than they kissed."

Me: "The story said she said he tried to get her to touch his genitals." Hall: "Well, she said he may have TRIED to. But we're talking something that somebody SAID happened, 40 years ago. It wouldn't affect whether or not I'd vote for him."

More Hall: “The other women that they’re using to corrobrate: number one, one was 19, one was 17, one was 16. There’s nothing wrong with a 30-year-old single male asking a 19-year-old, a 17-year-old, or a 16-year-old out on a date."

After a long pause, Alabama Bibb County Republican chairman Jerry Pow tells me he'd vote for Roy Moore even if Moore did commit a sex crime against a girl.

"I would vote for Judge Moore because I wouldn't want to vote for Doug," he says. "I'm not saying I support what he did."
Meanwhile, the AL Secretary of State (the one I quoted in the last thread as being suspicious of the allegations) is on Twitter claiming "I am not aware of any time in the history of the state where any individual has been denied the opportunity to vote in the general election if qualified", apparently forgetting his state was one of the major reasons for creating and passing the Voting Rights Act, as well as the fact that it was his state that enabled SCOTUS to gut it. Which is convenient for him, because as Daniel Nichanian notes:
If you don't know John Merrill, he's been spending this year continuously finding new ways to intimidate & suppress eligible voters.

(a) Merrill generated falsely accused hundreds of people of "crossover primary voting" & threatened them with 10 years in jail. Soon debunked. Beyond the insanity of treating "crossover primary voting" as a serious felony, probate judges dismissed all of this as nonsense[.]

(b) @aldotcom has shown that Merrill has not been informing county registars of new AL law that eases restoration of voting rights[.]
posted by zombieflanders at 1:33 PM on November 9 [34 favorites]


"I'm not saying I support what he did."

RON HOWARD: He was.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:34 PM on November 9 [39 favorites]


Yeah, from what I understand as a Jew with a large Catholic side of the family "virgin birth" encompasses the whole phenomenon from conception to crowning.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:35 PM on November 9 [2 favorites]


Mary got a break from original sin from God — the immaculate in immaculate conception means clean or unstained — and she was also personally without sin, allegedly, and so the virgin birth of Jesus.
posted by notyou at 1:35 PM on November 9 [3 favorites]


What do they call the conception of Jesus? Not his birth, the conception.

The Annunciation is probably the closest thing to a Catholic name for 'the conception of Jesus.' Depending on the telling and the translation, it's maybe 'conception' in the human sense, maybe not.
posted by halation at 1:36 PM on November 9 [11 favorites]




History behind the post title, for those interested. Hint: nothing to do with water.
posted by yoga at 1:37 PM on November 9 [21 favorites]


But I do find it curious, the way he phrased "adult carpenter". That's - that sounds odd, right?

If you're going to build a republican house you need a lot of dicks. Bingo, adult carpenter.
posted by nathan_teske at 1:37 PM on November 9 [1 favorite]


Alabama is a deep red state. They are very conservative and pretty religious.

Yup, which is why they'll think it's totally fine for a Fine Upstanding Man of God to molest teenage girls. They were probably just sluts who tempted him, and he showed his superior morality by not actually having sex with them!

This won't cost Moore a single Republican voter.
posted by sotonohito at 1:37 PM on November 9 [13 favorites]


zachlipton: After a long pause, Alabama Bibb County Republican chairman Jerry Pow tells me he'd vote for Roy Moore even if Moore did commit a sex crime against a girl.

"I would vote for Judge Moore because I wouldn't want to vote for Doug," he says. "I'm not saying I support what he did."


Party over country women, even young girls.

Women, these men of the GOP DO NOT SUPPORT YOU IN ANY WAY.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:37 PM on November 9 [45 favorites]


"I would vote for Judge Moore because I wouldn't want to vote for Doug," he says. "I'm not saying I support what he did."

This is one of those "I'm not standing WITH Nazis, just standing NEXT TO THEM" distinctions without a difference, right?
posted by mikelieman at 1:37 PM on November 9 [54 favorites]


No link, but it’s on the front page.

The front page of the Gateway Pundit is going to make me break my phone. Can you paste in the text?
posted by corb at 1:38 PM on November 9 [1 favorite]


To not abuse the edit window: Trump got 62% of the vote in Alabama after bragging about sexual assault, cheating on his many wives, openly lusting after his own daughter, and bragging about buying beauty pageants so he could peep on underage girls changing.

Moore's pedophilia won't hurt him a bit.
posted by sotonohito at 1:38 PM on November 9 [23 favorites]


I wonder if they feel the same way about Mohammed. I'm sure they are internally consistent. Of course they are.

christians about themselves and other christians: we HAVE to do these things, believe these things, because it's a part of our religion, it is god's LAW!

christians about members of other religions: can you believe these maniacs, these dangerous fundamentalists, they think they have to do these things because it's their religion? they think god is telling them what to do!

literally never a single moment of self-reflection in their entire lives.
posted by poffin boffin at 1:39 PM on November 9 [39 favorites]


I don't believe we (Catholics) have a specific term for that. I guess I can still say we even though I'm an atheist Catholic.
...
Yeah, from what I understand as a Jew with a large Catholic side of the family "virgin birth" encompasses the whole phenomenon from conception to crowning.
...
Mary got a break from original sin from God — the immaculate in immaculate conception means clean or unstained — and she was also personally without sin, allegedly, and so the virgin birth of Jesus.
...
The Annunciation is probably the closest thing to a Catholic name for 'the conception of Jesus.' Depending on the telling and the translation, it's maybe 'conception' in the human sense, maybe not.

Everything I thought I understood about this was completely wrong.

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the explanations!
posted by zarq at 1:39 PM on November 9 [11 favorites]


The Annunciation is probably the closest thing to a Catholic name for 'the conception of Jesus.'

Yes, was just coming in to say that. It's not a coincidence that the feast of the Annunciation is celebrated on March 25.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 1:40 PM on November 9 [14 favorites]


The gist of the Gateway Pundit post was that, since the AoC in AL was 12 at the time, it's totes cool.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:40 PM on November 9


> "There’s nothing wrong with a 30-year-old single male asking a 19-year-old, a 17-year-old, or a 16-year-old out on a date."

I wonder why he stopped counting down at that number?
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:41 PM on November 9 [12 favorites]


[Couple comments removed; let's keep this thread to Moore/Alabama stuff, not general catch-all US politics.]
posted by cortex at 1:41 PM on November 9


The gist of the Gateway Pundit post was that, since the AoC in AL was 12 at the time, it's totes cool.

Is this even true? I've read conflicting stuff about whether the age of consent was 16 at the time Moore did these things.
posted by Justinian at 1:46 PM on November 9 [1 favorite]


christians about themselves and other christians: we HAVE to do these things, believe these things, because it's a part of our religion, it is god's LAW!

christians about members of other religions: can you believe these maniacs, these dangerous fundamentalists, they think they have to do these things because it's their religion? they think god is telling them what to do!

literally never a single moment of self-reflection in their entire lives.


Oh, that's easy, because Jesus is real and other religions are false gods/the devil. That's it. No need for self-reflection because it's internally consistent: They're wrong and we're right. They follow false teachings and we follow the One True Path. If our God tells us to wipe nonbelievers off the face of the planet we'll do so gladly because it's His will. If those filthy nomads have a god that says we're infidels worthy of death then they're terrorists that have no place here in America, land of God and Freedom.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 1:46 PM on November 9 [6 favorites]


It's not a coincidence that the feast of the Annunciation is celebrated on March 25.

mindblown.gif

How did I never notice that?!?
posted by Jpfed at 1:47 PM on November 9 [5 favorites]


2017: The year my news push notifications triggered me multiple times.

BURN IT ALL RIGHT DOWN TO CINDERS
I have no cogent analysis to offer because every new reporter tweeting a quote from some Alabama GOP shithead is giving me the fucking post-traumatic vapors. I need a drink.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:47 PM on November 9 [21 favorites]


There’s nothing wrong with a 30-year-old single male asking a 19-year-old, a 17-year-old, or a 16-year-old out on a date.

Someone should make sure that quote gets put on appropriate pictures and circulates the next time he's running for election.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:47 PM on November 9 [25 favorites]


She just straight up turned into a dimensional gate one day.


posted by
tobascodagama at 1:48 PM on November 9 [8 favorites]


RolandOfEld: "Counting on A) a sexual abuse scandal that's B) big enough to sway Republicans C) far enough to attempt a write-in campaign seems to be a damn narrow window of hope but I certainly applaud your optimism."

I'm not that optimistic, particularly. It's an extremely steep slope.

But I think the last few years in politics should teach us that all that is solid melts into air, you know? ZERO people predicted the Democrats picking up 15-16 seats in the Virginia House of Delegates, for example. ZERO people thought a freaking outright Socialist would topple the GOP whip.

All things CAN happen. That by no means means that they WILL, but we should entertain the possibilities.
posted by Chrysostom at 1:50 PM on November 9 [16 favorites]


I don't suppose going after Moore on the theocracy stuff would work very well in Alabama? You know, run a picture of Moore and have it morph into a pic of Bin Laden with the caption "You know who else thought laws should be based on holy scripture?"
posted by Thorzdad at 1:50 PM on November 9 [2 favorites]


History behind the post title, for those interested. Hint: nothing to do with water.

Huh. I only knew it as a Hank Williams' catchphrase.

posted by Capt. Renault at 1:54 PM on November 9 [3 favorites]


Ennngh. Many if not most of the Republican voters in Alabama likely believe the problem wasn't that bin Laden wanted law based on scripture but that he wanted law based on the wrong scripture.
posted by Justinian at 1:54 PM on November 9 [6 favorites]


the annunciation is hilarious tho bc she's just hanging out minding her own business and some feathery sword-waving neckbeard shows up with trumpety fanfare and is all "GIRL YOU WON THE LOTTERY" and she's like "hmm idk man this sounds kinda suspish" and he's like "my dad just jizzed in you from the astral plane"
posted by poffin boffin at 1:55 PM on November 9 [105 favorites]


I have three scenarios:

1. A write-in campaign for Luther Strange gains momentum, splits the GOP vote - Jones wins
2. It gets worse for Moore, either due to the allegations OR due to general discontent with the GOP/Trump deepening nationwide - Jones wins
3. Nothing matters - Moore wins

I'm guessing that #3 is still the most likely scenario, but how possible are the other two? Long shots? Within reach? Should we be supporting the Luther Strange write-in campaign? Where is the absolute best place for us to focus our energies over the next month?
posted by triggerfinger at 1:55 PM on November 9 [3 favorites]


>> The gist of the Gateway Pundit post was that, since the AoC in AL was 12 at the time, it's totes cool.
> Is this even true? I've read conflicting things about whether the age of consent was 16 at the time Moore did these things.

It's not true. The WaPo article links to the The Code of Alabama 1975. The code says in Section 13A-6-70 that the age of consent is 16. The relevant sections for this allegation are Section 13A-6-67 (Sexual abuse in the second degree) and Section 13A-6-69 (Enticing child to enter vehicle, house, etc., for immoral purposes).
posted by papercrane at 1:55 PM on November 9 [30 favorites]


For those who want to act locally, here are three things you can do:

1. Investigate your state's child marriage laws, and advocate for increasing the minimum marriage age.
2. Investigate your state's laws regarding sexual assault/misconduct with a minor, particularly the statute of limitations; advocate for eliminating the statute of limitations.
3. Believe women and girls.

[pdf] a 2015 report on state legislation aiming to address child sexual abuse.
posted by
melissasaurus at 1:56 PM on November 9 [51 favorites]


This is a pedantic aside, but the phrase is "God willing and the Creek don't rise." It was a reference to the Creek Indians, and not a body of water. It was penned by Benjamin Hawkins, in a letter to President Washington. Hawkins is an interesting character, who was assigned to negotiate with the Creek and other tribes by Congress, was adopted by the Creeks, and married a Creek woman. Hawkins was scrupulous about his use of language, and in the letter Creek is capitalized, and the sentence is only grammatically correct if he is referring to the tribe, and not water.

/pedant
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 1:56 PM on November 9 [79 favorites]


That wouldn't work. The Bible is real scripture that all people should follow; that Mohammedan stuff is fake middle-eastern pro-violence oppressive-to-women scripture.

Plz to ignore any logic tangles in the preceding statement; hallelujah and hope to see you in church on Sunday. ...You are going to church on Sunday, right? You're not one of those godless liberals who's trying to take down the country with your immoral perversions, right?
[/sarcasm]

Look, there is absolutely no level of hypocrisy that will make the slightest dent in Alabama Republicans' understanding of religion.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:57 PM on November 9 [5 favorites]


zarq: "Everything I thought I understood about this was completely wrong."

Don't sweat it - most non-Catholics mis-interpret this. See also the conversation about papal infallibility we have every time the pope is mentioned.
posted by Chrysostom at 1:59 PM on November 9 [12 favorites]


since the AoC in AL was 12 at the time, it's totes cool.

Alabama age of marriage was raised to 16 in 2003. Age of marriage in '79 may well have been 12. However, age of consent for unmarried people is, and seems to have been, 16.

(You have to let pregnant 14-year-olds get married; otherwise, they might get abortions.)

(I really, really wish I were making up that justification.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:00 PM on November 9 [36 favorites]


I don't know why this sort of thing is so common among conservative politicians, but I move that it be formally known as "the Hastert rule", after the highest-ranking politician in U.S. history to have gone to prison.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:00 PM on November 9 [11 favorites]


Look, there is absolutely no level of hypocrisy that will make the slightest dent in Alabama Republicans' understanding of religion.

On the other hand, but if they want to make "THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS PRO-PEDOPHILE" a national message for the 2018 midterms, I'm not gonna turn it down.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:01 PM on November 9 [43 favorites]


triggerfinger: "Where is the absolute best place for us to focus our energies over the next month?"

Donate to Jones, do the postcard thing, do texting. Do you sound like you are from Alabama? If so, do some phonebanking.

The Strange thing will happen or it won't, it's not worth worrying about.
posted by Chrysostom at 2:02 PM on November 9 [3 favorites]


The stunning silence from the Pizzagate crowd on this is really something.

"The Hastert Rule" is unfortunately already a different thing, though the quality of the rule and the quality of the person it is named for have much in common.
posted by zachlipton at 2:02 PM on November 9 [5 favorites]


" ...the highest-ranking politician in U.S. history to have gone to prison. "

So far. OhpleaseOhpleaseOhplease
posted by Floydd at 2:03 PM on November 9 [22 favorites]


Ugh 9 years of Lutheran grade school and it just hits me at 41 that the immaculate conception story is about a teenage girl who didn't consent.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 2:03 PM on November 9 [33 favorites]


Well, technically, the Annunciation...
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 2:05 PM on November 9 [11 favorites]


Josh Marshall with a fairly cogent analysis of where things stand for now:

The most likely upshot of all of this is that Moore becomes too radioactive for national Republicans to endorse him and possibly to get national money but still remains on the ticket and running for the office.

posted by RedOrGreen at 2:06 PM on November 9




Some legal analysis of ramifications of Moore dropping out, write-ins, the Torricelli decision, etc.
posted by Chrysostom at 2:21 PM on November 9 [3 favorites]


What happens if Moore wins but the Senate refuses to seat him? (Or more likely scenario if Moore wins is that nothing short of being thrown in jail will keep him from being seated because IOKIYAR.)
posted by nathan_teske at 2:28 PM on November 9 [1 favorite]


Unless charges get filed at some point, the most acknowledgement likely to come out of this is Moore admitting to "youthful indiscretions," and saying he had a "come to Jesus moment" later, and has always been totally devoted to his wife since he first met her.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:33 PM on November 9 [5 favorites]


Under Powell v. McCormack, it’s extremely difficult to not seat an elected member of Congress, unless you vote 2/3 to expel them.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 2:33 PM on November 9 [2 favorites]


That'll be tough to square with his current stance that this is all fake news and a horrible attack on his character from the lying liberal media, but I'm sure all of twelve people would decide not to vote for him if he instantly reversed that.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:35 PM on November 9 [2 favorites]


This is a pedantic aside, but the phrase is "God willing and the Creek don't rise." It was a reference to the Creek Indians, and not a body of water. It was penned by Benjamin Hawkins, in a letter to President Washington. Hawkins is an interesting character, who was assigned to negotiate with the Creek and other tribes by Congress, was adopted by the Creeks, and married a Creek woman. Hawkins was scrupulous about his use of language, and in the letter Creek is capitalized, and the sentence is only grammatically correct if he is referring to the tribe, and not water.

/pedant


This may be folk etymology.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 2:36 PM on November 9 [39 favorites]


What happens if Moore wins but the Senate refuses to seat him? (Or more likely scenario if Moore wins is that nothing short of being thrown in jail will keep him from being seated because IOKIYAR.)

Just off the top of my head, I'd expect that if the Republicans make it harsh enough for him that he resigns, then the Governor of Alabama appoints a replacement, and we get to schedule another special election a few months down the line. I wonder if Trump, who campaigned for Strange, would try to get the Governor to re-appoint him as the replacement...or if, as a loser, he'd prefer not to think of him ever again.
posted by Four Ds at 2:36 PM on November 9 [1 favorite]


Not seating Moore - there would have to be reason to find the election itself corrupt or invalid.
posted by Chrysostom at 2:37 PM on November 9


I doubt the Senate would ever refuse to seat an elected Senator even if they could, because that would open up a whole new angle for people to work the refs WRT controversial candidates.
posted by rhizome at 2:38 PM on November 9 [4 favorites]


He could be seated and then expelled
posted by fluttering hellfire at 2:40 PM on November 9 [2 favorites]


The only way they'd consider not seating an elected Senator, is if he committed a violent felony on camera between election day and when he's supposed to take office.

Greg Gianforte wasn't challenged. Moore is not going to be challenged by the Senate over being creepy 30 years ago, not even if the creepiness was assault. If the creepiness included outright rape, you'd need formal charges filed before anyone in the Republican party administration considered taking action about it.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:42 PM on November 9 [6 favorites]


I think the odds of 18 Republican Senators voting to expel Moore in the absence of many more revelations are between 0 and 0.
posted by Justinian at 2:42 PM on November 9 [14 favorites]


AL state auditor defends Moore: "Take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus.”

Yes AND THE BIBLE SAYS THEY REMAINED CHASTE. Which presumably doesn't mean taking off their clothes and fondling each other.
posted by notsnot at 2:43 PM on November 9 [9 favorites]


The thing to keep in mind is that Alabamans tend to be "traditional values" people, and they tend to be serious about that, similar to the way Mormons are.

So, I doubt this will go over well within the state's borders. With the average Alabama voter.


Alabama voted 63% for a serial sexual predator and adulterer last November

So...about 63% don’t give a shit about any values except racism and misogyny
posted by schadenfrau at 2:48 PM on November 9 [17 favorites]


I would like a blog that is exclusively split screens of GOP mantweets "as a father of a daughter" next to the allegations these women are bringing.
posted by nakedmolerats at 2:49 PM on November 9 [3 favorites]


12 Republican senators have ALREADY called on Roy Moore to resign.

If he doesn’t every single ad from now until the election should refer to him as “Accused Pedophile Roy Moore.”
posted by leotrotsky at 2:52 PM on November 9 [23 favorites]


He could be seated and then expelled

expelled like launched into the sun via tremendous trebuchet?
posted by poffin boffin at 2:53 PM on November 9 [37 favorites]


bc those are my personal demands
posted by poffin boffin at 2:54 PM on November 9 [15 favorites]


These assholes with their "I'm voting for Moore because there is no option to vote for Doug Jones" (paraphrasing from the many quotes Daniel Dale is collecting from Alabama pols on his twitter) - you're PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for getting a FUCKING PEDOPHILE NOMINATED TO THIS SENATE SEAT!!! MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T FUCKING VOTE THEN BECAUSE YOUR JUDGMENT IS CLEARLY FUCKING SUSPECT
posted by aiglet at 2:54 PM on November 9 [32 favorites]


12 Republican senators have ALREADY called on Roy Moore to resign.

But he won't, and once he wins they'll be all "while I abhor his behavior, if the allegations are true, the people of Alabama have spoken."
posted by Justinian at 2:57 PM on November 9 [17 favorites]


It's 2017, so somehow I'm sure this is going to end with Senator Jeff Sessions again, and Trump appointing a new, even worse, Attorney General who ends the Russia investigation.
posted by zachlipton at 2:58 PM on November 9 [5 favorites]


Moore obviously just misunderstood what the Hastert Rule meant. It was an honest mistake!
posted by rikschell at 2:59 PM on November 9 [1 favorite]


But he won't, and once he wins

Don’t assume that’s a given. Remember Virginia. Accused Pedophile Roy Moore doesn’t represent the people of Alabama.
posted by leotrotsky at 2:59 PM on November 9 [6 favorites]


On a related note. JUST IN: Senate just unanimously passed a resolution requiring mandatory sexual harassment training for all senators, staff and interns. Bipartisan proposal was crafted in recent days by Sen. Grassley, Klobuchar and others
posted by zachlipton at 3:00 PM on November 9 [34 favorites]


TPM:Top Alabama GOPers Blast McConnell, Defend Roy Moore After Underage Sex Allegations

There are so many amazing quotes in this article I don't even know where to begin. "McConnell is scum" is one of them. And to paraphrase State Rep Ed Henry, "Pics or it didn't happen."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:01 PM on November 9 [8 favorites]


i wasn't aware republican politicians needed training to sexually harass people
posted by pyramid termite at 3:01 PM on November 9 [26 favorites]


Don’t assume that’s a given. Remember Virginia. Accused Pedophile Roy Moore doesn’t represent the people of Alabama.

I hope you are correct and we should try to make sure you are correct but Alabama is not Virginia. Alabama went for Trump by 28 points. 28! Virginia went to Clinton by 5.
posted by Justinian at 3:02 PM on November 9 [5 favorites]


I'm not sure what sexual harassment training is going to do, because lord knows these creeps know what they're doing is wrong.

I guess it gives the federal government a free pass to throw up its hands and say "well, we told them not to do it!"
posted by elsietheeel at 3:03 PM on November 9 [3 favorites]


mandatory sexual harassment training

Accused Pedophile Roy Moore can assure you he needs no further training in how to sexually harass someone, he’s got plenty of experience.
posted by leotrotsky at 3:03 PM on November 9 [2 favorites]


Thanks for the 3 posts about the title. I too have heard the saying over the years and it just didn't make sense that it had anything to do with Native Americans. I started doing the research, and of course people here had done it already. Thank you for that.
posted by cashman at 3:04 PM on November 9 [4 favorites]


Stages of allegations of sexual harassment or assault:
1.) "I didn't do it and in fact have never even met the person in question. This is outrageous. My accuser is crazy/just wants money/just wants attention/is a liar."

2.) "Okay I did meet them but I still didn't do it. My accuser is crazy/just wants money/just wants attention/is a liar."

3.) "Okay maybe I did it but I was drunk/on drugs/it was consensual/it was a long time ago/times were different/my accuser is crazy/just wants money/just wants attention/is a liar"

4.) "Okay maybe it wasn't consensual but I don't remember because I was drunk/on drugs/it was a long time ago/times were different, and don't forget my accuser is crazy/just wants money/just wants attention/is a liar."

5.) "Okay WHOOPS like anywhere between 4-200 people have confirmed these allegations against me uh...they're all crazy/just want money/just want attention/are liars?"

6.) "Okay I'm sorry if you were offended by my sexual harassment or assault but I'm going to dedicate my time to finding the real killer/go to douchebag rapist rehab/spend time with my family."

7.) "Okay but what is assault really tho who can even know for sure today, websters dictionary defines it as/what is even pedophilia like the legal age of consent on the moon is 8 so who's to say really/it wasn't like assault assault it was more like assault??????"

8.) "Okay sure I did all that stuff but I'm really sorry and can we get back to focusing on the real issues facing us all today like taxes or whatever? This is all water under the bridge."

9.) Disappear from public life for a minute, spend five seconds being stigmatized and shunned, slowly get brought back into the fold after a few months or years usually by being a good sport and letting someone make jokes about you, slither back into your old career like the evil lizardy freak show that you are.
posted by supercrayon at 3:06 PM on November 9 [29 favorites]


On a related note. JUST IN: Senate just unanimously passed a resolution requiring mandatory sexual harassment training for all senators, staff and interns. Bipartisan proposal was crafted in recent days by Sen. Grassley, Klobuchar and others

Splendid. I can see them all furiously taking notes. "Wait sexual harassment...is bad? Will this be on the test?"

I joke because I'm pissed off but really awesome that this is being done because it lays the groundwork to nail future harassing assholes when they try to say they didn't know any better. BUT YOU HAD THAT MANDATORY TRAINING DIPSHIT, WHOOPS.
posted by supercrayon at 3:11 PM on November 9 [4 favorites]


I have this thread and the Louis CK thread open in different tabs, and at one point I couldn't tell which was which without looking at the URL because there's a number of comments that could go in either.

I keep coming back to the fact so many of us minorities of all types and women face huge repercussions for even the slightest slip or deviation from cultural norms and behaviors.

Those repercussions include death -- I bet a lot of Moore's defenders are descended from people who had no trouble with the idea of lynching a black man for so much as looking at a white woman of any age, let alone touching one. Also, for a lot of the folks defending Moore, I would bet that our very existence as women and minorities -- -- just breathing and driving and walking and trying to make a living -- counts as an actionable deviation from the norm.

But let one of the "made men" of the Republican party do something and he's guaranteed a ton of defenders working tirelessly to blame his victims and clear his name.

As so many others have said, it's just tiring at this point to watch the same goddamn story over and over again.
posted by lord_wolf at 3:14 PM on November 9 [51 favorites]


I'm not sure what sexual harassment training is going to do...

They're getting ahead of the inevitable so they can roll with the "look yes, many of us were at times indelicate in our interactions, but this has already been addressed..."

It takes a long time for a bill to become a law.
posted by notyou at 3:18 PM on November 9 [2 favorites]


no one remembers schoolhouse rock
posted by poffin boffin at 3:21 PM on November 9 [6 favorites]


The conception of Jesus is called the Incarnation, the "en-meat-ulating" of Christ in a human body. It's celebrated March 25 as the Feast of the Annunciation (when Gabriel told Mary she was knocked up). Which is celebrated March 25 because some early monks bickering about the calendar were sure Jesus was incarnated on the same calendar day he was crucified because he was perfect (and obviously dying on the anniversary of your conception is a mark of perfection, duh) and were pretty sure he was crucified on March 25 by their (not terrific) calendar math, which is part of why they decided Christmas was in December because BEING PERFECT, Jesus was in Mary's womb for EXACTLY NINE MONTHS (protip: celibate monks don't know a lot about how pregnancy works) so by that logic if he was incarnated March 25, he was born December 25, IT ALL WORKS OUT REALLY NEAT, SEE? This is also way the new year began on March 25 in parts of Europe through the medieval era.

Anyway the Feast of the Annunciation is when God Incarnates and becomes a meat-person and is when the "era of grace" begins for Christians, and is probably a more important festival than Christmas, which is just commemorating the birth.

"Seriously crying with laughter that they trotted out the Immaculate Conception as an example of why maybe it's okay if an adult sometimes fucks a teenager. HOW IS THIS REAL"

I'm sort-of curious for someone to ask one of these people, "What about Mohammed and Aisha?" because they always, always go off the deep end about how we can tell Mohammed isn't a holy man or messenger of God because HE WAS A PEDOPHILE but apparently, but if we're cool with Mary and Joseph and we're cool with Roy Moore dating little girls, then we're cool with Mohammed and Aisha now, right?

(Actually having this conversation with an ultra-Christian right-wing Moore fan is probably a terrible idea, don't do it.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:22 PM on November 9 [55 favorites]



Noting that Moore references the "National Democrat Party" in his denial.


I noticed that as well, a pretty piece of red Fox meat with a side of "outside agitators" it was, too.

Imagine then my mild surprise to see that it's not there anymore, though...
So it is no surprise, with just over four weeks remaining, in a race for the U.S. Senate with national implications, that the Democratic Party and the country’s most liberal newspaper would come up with a fabrication of this kind.
shrug.gif
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:25 PM on November 9 [1 favorite]


You know, nowadays, I wake up everyday knowing things are going to go off the rails in a terrible direction. Heck, living on the west coast, sometimes that's already happened before I wake up. But I did not remotely imagine today that they would go off the rails to the extent we'd all have to learn what the Feast of the Annunciation is to rebut theological arguments that it's ok that the next US Senator from Alabama (pause here to say you should go support Doug Jones) molested a 14-year-old.
posted by zachlipton at 3:30 PM on November 9 [47 favorites]


Alabama went for Trump by 28 points. 28

And remember Trump voters already voted for one (admitted!) sexual predator. I'm not sure they're super concerned about doing it again. Or, they will use the same kind of rationalizations (fake news, not a big deal, whatever works for them). We'll see.
posted by thefoxgod at 3:31 PM on November 9 [2 favorites]


no one remembers schoolhouse rock

My wife and I enjoyed an evening of wine and SHR recently and for sure the one about manifest destiny is probably best forgotten. Catchy tho!
posted by notyou at 3:31 PM on November 9 [4 favorites]


The line of rationale will be, as it was last year: "Oh, that's bad, yep, sure... but his opponent is worse." Because the floating ether of what they MIGHT DO is much much worse than the actual violation that has actually occurred.

What exactly that says about the value of women, the value of consent, and the value of law is left to the reader as an exercise.
posted by e to the pi i at 3:35 PM on November 9 [4 favorites]


I've had something of a bad afternoon. Reading about the Roy Moore allegations triggered me in a way I had been able to avoid previously. There is so much slimy, ugly stuff in my background starting from when I was a kindergartner and I mostly don't think about it. But today I was thinking about how few men there were in my life before I turned....40 something who didn't try to paw, grope, ogle, kiss, pat, stroke, or rape me. Really an astonishingly small number. Even when I was married there were always men at work or in the neighborhood who would try something. It makes me think for so many men, women are not real human beings but objects to be used. The sense of entitlement is astonishing and when we rebuff them we are cock teasers, bitches, cold fish or "sending out mixed signals."

I am hoping for a better future for all young women.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:39 PM on November 9 [59 favorites]


This part of the WaPo article caught my attention:

She says she thought of confronting Moore personally for years, and almost came forward publicly during his first campaign for state Supreme Court in 2000, but decided against it. Her two children were still in school then and she worried about how it would affect them. She also was concerned that her background — three divorces and a messy financial history — might undermine her credibility.

She was rationally anticipating a lot of public irrationality. Her divorces/finances have zero to do with "credibility" or whatever, but yeah, people would have made an issue. And yeah, depressingly, I'm sure she would also have been right to have worried about her kids getting some backlash. Ugggggghhhhh.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 3:45 PM on November 9 [35 favorites]


That's every woman who has been victimized by a man with power: what can he do to me? How much worse will my life be if I come forward? It is a personal calculation and you have to be a strong person to go forward.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:52 PM on November 9 [16 favorites]


Some follow up questions I would ask Mr Ziegler and any other Alabamian defending Moore when they trot out Joseph/Mary or anything else to defend him:

1) How would you feel if a star black football player at Auburn/Alabama (depending on the person being questioned's allegiance) did what Moore is accused of doing with a 14 year old white girl?

2) What if it was a star black football player at the rival school?

3) What if Barack Obama were the perpetrator?

Just to see the spasm of emotions cross their face before they force themselves to stutter and sputter and lie and claim they'd feel the exact same way. Or to see what kind of convoluted logic they would attempt to use to explain how it would be totally obviously completely different in those cases.
posted by lord_wolf at 3:52 PM on November 9 [19 favorites]


I would really like it if people stopped using the word "pedophile" for "adult men who prey on teenage girls;" they're not attracted to people who aren't physically mature - they want people who aren't emotionally mature, people who can't see through their scams.

If we somehow managed perfect enforcement of age-of-consent laws and raised that age to 18, they'd go after ultra-sheltered teenage girls, sending them flowers and pretty words in the months before their 18th birthday and then convince the girls they were Deeply In Love and he is so so happy to find someone who is Pure and Innocent, not like those sluts, you know.

Please stop calling predatory creeps "pedophiles" just because it's a more powerful buzzword. It muddies the water, because the creeps - and more importantly, their communities - all know that wanting a Sweet Pure and Innocent Young Wife is not pedophilia.

The term is (1) inaccurate and (2) ineffective in persuading their local communities. It really doesn't matter how much the opposition's echo chamber likes to conflate "adult dating teen" with "adult molesting a 5-year-old." Refusing to differentiate leads to situations where people blame a 5-year-old for "leading on" an adult man, because they're constantly barraged with the message that there's no difference in sexual maturity between 5 and 17.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:56 PM on November 9 [12 favorites]


Meanwhile, human mop bucket Katie Hopkins from the Daily Mail claimed today that it's not credible unless she comes forward "within a week or two," that accusing Moore has set women's causes back decades, and that young women are acutely aware of what they have to offer and that trading "youth for power" is a fair and voluntary arrangement.

I don't think my vomit should be purple.
posted by delfin at 3:59 PM on November 9 [8 favorites]


Please stop calling predatory creeps "pedophiles" just because it's a more powerful buzzword. It muddies the water, because the creeps - and more importantly, their communities - all know that wanting a Sweet Pure and Innocent Young Wife is not pedophilia.

I don't give a shit what their communities think, because their way of thinking is a) diseased and b) not going to change. Instead, I'm aiming for everyone on the outside, so they can see what these communities are really about.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:02 PM on November 9 [16 favorites]


Refusing to differentiate leads to situations where people blame a 5-year-old for "leading on" an adult man, because they're constantly barraged with the message that there's no difference in sexual maturity between 5 and 17.

I'm sorry, I've never heard of a situation where a 5 year old child has been accused of seducing an adult male. Can you provide an example?

A 14 year old girl is both emotionally and physically immature; they may have entered puberty but a predator is still assaulting a child. I don't think we need to provide shades of gray here; what Moore did was child sexual assault, same as if the child had been 9 years old or 5 years old.
posted by Existential Dread at 4:03 PM on November 9 [15 favorites]


Roy Moore is tweeting through it. His statement includes "Our children and grandchildren’s futures are on the line."

Which...Yes. That's actually the point here. So maybe don't claim you're running for the children a few hours after you're accused of molesting a child?
posted by zachlipton at 4:03 PM on November 9 [44 favorites]


The Annunciation is probably the closest thing to a Catholic name for 'the conception of Jesus.'

When Catholics remember the conception of Jesus, the focus is on celebrating Mary giving her consent rather that fussing about how the sperm got in there or whatever. The angel doesn't appear to Mary's parents and tell her father what's going to happen to his daughter, as one might expect.

(And it's even more significant that her consent is seen as important in the story given that the biblical text seems kind of ambiguous about it.)
posted by straight at 4:05 PM on November 9 [14 favorites]


It is a bedrock belief in American Evangelical circles that women are to blame for any sexual misconduct. All women must control the situation by keeping themselves chaste and by dressing and acting modestly. Meanwhile any sexual sins that men incur are a direct result of the women being temptresses or by the wives not keeping their husbands satisfied. It really is an amazing bit of legerdemain that means that men are never at fault. Some of this conceit bleeds over into the secular world. Teenage girls, who can resist them, amiright?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:06 PM on November 9 [15 favorites]


Refusing to differentiate leads to situations where people blame a 5-year-old for "leading on" an adult man,

We are right now, today, in a situation where people blame 14-year-olds for "leading on" adult men. If that doesn't shock you, it should. We are right now, today, with no need to be led to it, in a situation where a child is more or less sinned against depending upon whether she has had her first period yet. "Differentiating" between identically aged barely-teens based on how they look to a child molester is a thing people do right now and a situation we need to get out of by calling crimes by their proper names and not declaring that you exit childhood and the protections due to childhood when you grow breasts, no matter how old you are when that happens. That is not the result of strict differentiation; it is the definition of misogyny.

Psychologists can differentiate based on molester intent. That may be relevant to assessing punishment and treatment options. Legislators and human beings of all other types should differentiate based on whether a child was harmed. Girls don't stop being children at puberty.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:09 PM on November 9 [52 favorites]


oh, existential dread
School blames third graders for their sexual abuse. Sure they're nine, not five, but it took me all of 30 seconds to remember this one.

It's all blame, all the way down.

That said, not sure the argument of pedophile vs. predator is particularly relevant. Both are crimes, both are vile, and he'll skate regardless because OMG OBAMACARE and that a majority of people in the state of Alabama will not only do this but say it OUT LOUD is what makes me want to weep for humanity.
posted by e to the pi i at 4:14 PM on November 9 [10 favorites]


I'm sorry, I've never heard of a situation where a 5 year old child has been accused of seducing an adult male. Can you provide an example?
Nine years old isn't 5 years old, I'll grant you, but it's certainly not teenagerhood:
“Through their actions and/or omissions, plaintiffs conducted themselves in a careless and negligent manner, and such negligence was a contributing and/or sole proximate cause of their injuries and damages.”
posted by foxfirefey at 4:15 PM on November 9 [1 favorite]


excuse me, i must go outside and scream for a while
posted by Existential Dread at 4:20 PM on November 9 [11 favorites]




Only these women came forward because they didn't fucking consent. This is really like the grossest possible derail
posted by aiglet at 4:23 PM on November 9 [27 favorites]


Child of Southerners here; am not a Southerner. The impression that I get from my fucked-up Southern family — from which, I know, I can't entirely responsibly generalize — is that the modal White Southerner values personal loyalty toward authority figures over literally everything else. Your pastor molested your kid? It's your responsibility to cover up for him. Your husband likes to get blind drunk and recreationally punch you? It's your responsibility to "take the high road" by focusing on whatever positive aspects of his behavior you can find, and it's especially your responsibility to make sure no one finds out he's got a weakness for domestic abuse, and even if everyone knows it's your responsibility to never talk about it.

The way you assess authority figures is by checking to see if they're authority figures. Are they an authority figure? They're good. The way you assess people who aren't authority figures is by assessing how well they cover up for the indiscretions of authority figures. Do they talk about things? They're bad. Do they keep secrets? They're good.

Roy Moore's going to the Senate.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 4:23 PM on November 9 [43 favorites]


Way too many of the pundits on CNN/MSNBC seem to think that this will matter to the electorate who supports Trump/Moore. I know denial is a powerful thing but have they not been paying attention to the past 16 months? The Trumpistas are all in; It's too late to walk back now. They've already hollowed themselves out and compromised their morals past the point of no return.
posted by Justinian at 4:24 PM on November 9 [5 favorites]


It is very true to say that nine years old isn't the same as thirteen. or nineteen. or to say that harm to children is worse than harm to others.

but saying a nine-year-old brought assault upon herself through carelessness IS THE SAME as saying a thirteen-year-old did so. or a nineteen-year-old, or a ninety-year old. It is not less heinous to say she "brought it on herself" the closer the victim comes to the corrupt status of adult womanhood.

rape and assault should not be treated as if they only shock the conscience when committed on the pre-pubertal. or the pre-literate, or the preverbal: hey, at least teens aren't real children. hey, at least adult women aren't teens. this is a sick way to think of it


Declaring that consent cannot exist before the age of 18 means stating that a 17-year-old, a 14-year-old, and a 5-year-old have the same level of autonomy and control of their sex lives.


In fact, when you're assaulted, you do have the same level of control as any other victim of any age: none. Assault isn't about teens' "sex lives."
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:26 PM on November 9 [48 favorites]


Declaring that consent cannot exist before the age of 18 means stating that a 17-year-old, a 14-year-old, and a 5-year-old have the same level of autonomy and control of their sex lives. That's a terrible message to push.

So. You've cited a series of cases where the abuser accused the victim of seduction. The school district case above is what I was looking for, where the structures in power that have the ability to offer redress are accusing the victims. I don't give a fuck what an abuser says; they're the fucking abuser.

In fact, when you're assaulted, you do have the same level of control as any other victim of any age: none. Assault isn't about teens' "sex lives."

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS
posted by Existential Dread at 4:27 PM on November 9 [11 favorites]


Which is celebrated March 25 because some early monks bickering about the calendar were sure Jesus was incarnated on the same calendar day he was crucified because he was perfect (and obviously dying on the anniversary of your conception is a mark of perfection, duh) and were pretty sure he was crucified on March 25 by their (not terrific) calendar math

Bah. It was a patriarchal plot to steal the vernal equinox from Ostara of the Dawn.
posted by homunculus at 4:28 PM on November 9 [10 favorites]


Daniel Dale has been calling up each Alabama county GOP chair and asking them for comment. It's a parade of horrors, but this guy has to have a special place:
"Other than being with an underage person - he didn't really force himself," Alabama Geneva County GOP chairman Riley Seibenhener tells me. "I know that's bad enough, but I don't know. If he withdraws, it's five weeks to the election...that would concede it to the Democrat."
posted by tavella at 4:28 PM on November 9 [34 favorites]


"Other than being a pedophile". Just... how the hell do you think that, much less call up a reporter and say it for the record?
posted by tavella at 4:30 PM on November 9 [7 favorites]


Because to people like Riley Seibenhener and sadly much of the Alabama Republican electorate being a Democrat is the worst thing you can be. So that construction makes sense. Yeah, sure, being a pedophile is bad but at least he's not a Democrat.
posted by Justinian at 4:31 PM on November 9 [23 favorites]


A phrase one may hear from one's fucked-up southern family, should one have a fucked-up southern family:

"I mean, he didn't rape those kids. He never raped anybody! He talked them into it!"

Roy Moore's going to the Senate.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 4:31 PM on November 9 [10 favorites]


don't they realize how corrupt and vile they're becoming to the rest of the country? don't they realize that any government run by them will eventually lose all legitimacy?

they're not drowning government in a bathtub, they're drowning it in a sewer - and the next thing to be drowned will be them

they think they can sow the wind and survive the whirlwind - they think they can corrupt the government to the point of falling apart and yet their society will somehow survive it

they will pay a terrible, bitter price for this - don't they realize that?
posted by pyramid termite at 4:33 PM on November 9 [8 favorites]


rape and assault should not be treated as if they only shock the conscience when committed on the pre-pubertal. or the pre-literate, or the preverbal: hey, at least teens aren't real children. hey, at least adult women aren't teens. this is a sick way to think of it

This, I agree with entirely. I'm objecting to calling them all "pedophiles," for the same reason that I object to calling patting-on-the-ass and groping "rape." It can be a crime and worthy of both lawsuits and criminal prosecution without using a label that conflates it with some other crime.

This is one of my hot-button issues, because I keep seeing it come up and turn into an echo chamber: everyone who thinks what happened is horrible finds the worst possible label they can use for it, and everyone who thinks it was "maybe regrettable, but not something he should go to jail for" ignores them.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:36 PM on November 9 [2 favorites]


Not much of a Christian ... Doesn't he know that Christians have twelve commandments?
posted by ZenMasterThis at 4:36 PM on November 9 [3 favorites]


The price they've paid so far is total control of the American government, so...
posted by tavella at 4:36 PM on November 9 [10 favorites]


Brutal political cartoon from Matt Davies.
posted by Justinian at 4:38 PM on November 9 [63 favorites]


they will pay a terrible, bitter price for this - don't they realize that?

hopefully that terrible, bitter price is social democracy
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:40 PM on November 9 [6 favorites]


the sticker price is full communism and the abolition of the church, the family, and the state. social democracy is what we're willing to be bargained down to.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 4:47 PM on November 9 [13 favorites]


This, I agree with entirely. I'm objecting to calling them all "pedophiles,"

A 30something going after 13 year olds is totally a pedo.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 4:47 PM on November 9 [23 favorites]


In one afternoon the GOP has managed to go from the Party of family values to the Party of pedophiles. This is on them. If they want to support Moore and paint his accusers as money/fame-hungry sluts and adult men dating 16 yos as A-Ok then I don't know what the future holds. They may crash and burn, they may emerge unscathed. I'm not betting on either outcome.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:49 PM on November 9 [2 favorites]


This is one of my hot-button issues, because I keep seeing it come up and turn into an echo chamber: everyone who thinks what happened is horrible finds the worst possible label they can use for it, and everyone who thinks it was "maybe regrettable, but not something he should go to jail for" ignores them.

i tend to think that whenever someone describes an assault in harsher terms than i personally might use, it might be because they have specific personal reasons for doing so and not because of some kind of oft-proposed but less often factual case of groupthink.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:50 PM on November 9 [15 favorites]


A 14 year old girl is both emotionally and physically immature

2006 doesn't seem like that long ago but ...this Metafilter thread has aged really poorly. Thank God people here don't make these kinds of arguments any more.
posted by Ralston McTodd at 4:50 PM on November 9 [10 favorites]


"Other than being with an underage person - he didn't really force himself," Alabama Geneva County GOP chairman Riley Seibenhener tells me. "I know that's bad enough, but I don't know. If he withdraws, it's five weeks to the election...that would concede it to the Democrat."

This has just been a day of vomit from Alabama Republicans, but it's amazing to me that nobody's denying it. They aren't all being "I've known Roy Moore for years and I know he'd never do anything like this because he's a good Christian who loves his wife blah blah blah." They know. They're just coming to terms with exactly how much sexual assault they can justify to get a Republican elected, but nobody is seriously doubting it.

I mean, I actually can understand it to an extent. If you contrived an example and told me my choices for Senate are between a Democrat who did this and someone who wants to ban abortion, fill the Supreme Court with Clarence Thomases (Clarences Thomas?), and destroy Medicaid, I'd be crushed. And in a very dark place in my mind, I'd start mentally calculating just how much awfulness I could stomach from a Senator if it was essential to saving Medicaid. I'm not proud of that, but voting for anyone is an act of compromise in ways big or small; campaigns are just about haggling over the price. This isn't as simple as "I won't watch his movies anymore;" elections have consequences for real people. But at some point, the point before you're being all "other than the molestation," you have to draw the line and say you're not voting for this, we'll run a write-in, campaign like hell, and at least we'll be able to look ourselves in the mirror after it's over whatever happens. And to say "Other than being with an underage person - he didn't really force himself," that's just utterly inexcusable. That this into an attack on Corfman and her story. That's not mentally calculating; it's defending it.

A really disgusting day.
posted by zachlipton at 4:51 PM on November 9 [67 favorites]


They can wear being the party of nazis and Russian treason, they can wear this.
posted by Artw at 4:51 PM on November 9 [25 favorites]


ErisLordFreedom I think it's a bad hill to die on.

I mean, yes, technically you are correct. There is a difference between pre-pubescent children and post-pubescent children, and in theory while it's a joke that "an ephebophile is a pedophile with a thesaurus", there is a technical difference. Maybe.

But I think it's a bad hill to die on. American society has been using "pedophile" to describe adults preying on children, including teens, for a long time now, so much so that the meaning of the word has shifted for non-technical purposes. This isn't anything new, and I don't see how it dilutes crimes against pre-pubescent children to use the word "pedophile" to describe adults who sexually molest post-pubescent children.
posted by sotonohito at 4:53 PM on November 9 [20 favorites]


A pedophile is a pedophile. Moore is a pedophile candidate, the GOP is a pedophile party for supporting him and if it elects him Alabama is the pedophile state. Lets face it, from the defenses of him it already is, clearly no underage gir is safe there.
posted by Artw at 4:56 PM on November 9 [13 favorites]


When women or girls say they were assaulted or harassed the takeaway from this should not be “let’s philosophically examine the age of consent and the different stages of child development”. Like for fucking real?
posted by supercrayon at 4:58 PM on November 9 [75 favorites]



Mike Huckabee is friends with a staggering number of pedophiles.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 5:00 PM on November 9 [23 favorites]


Mike "Not a Pedophile, But #1 With Pedophiles" Huckabee
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 5:03 PM on November 9 [23 favorites]


GOP: Group Of Pedophiles
posted by Justinian at 5:04 PM on November 9 [17 favorites]


everyone knows.

everyone. knows.

everyone. knows. everything.

The only people who don't know are the clueless outsiders who insist on talking about it. and because everyone knows, and because everyone knows everyone knows, and because it's all so normalized that everyone thinks that it's like that everywhere, their reaction to clueless outsiders like us talking about it is to despise us. To them, we are pious hypocrites; they think that because they think that the way things are there are the way things are everywhere.

They honestly think that it is a universal fact that powerful men rape little girls and little boys, always, and that everyone else has to cover up for them, because being good means respecting authority and respecting authority means keeping secrets.

Roy Moore's going to the Senate.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:07 PM on November 9 [17 favorites]


for more of my thoughts on white culture in the deep south see my forthcoming essay collection, provisionally titled BURN IT DOWN BURN IT ALL DOWN GET THE CHILDREN TO SAFETY AND THEN BURN THE PLACE WITH FIRE.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:10 PM on November 9 [35 favorites]


It's really not in the slightest bit nuanced, and anyone defending him is complicit.

But yes, he is going to the senate.
posted by Artw at 5:10 PM on November 9 [2 favorites]


I, too, am experiencing low empathy for the economically anxious.
posted by Artw at 5:12 PM on November 9 [17 favorites]


Roy Moore has always been destined to be the Senator from Alabama. He's not stepping aside. He'll still win. This only confirms he's the perfect representative of the state.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:14 PM on November 9 [4 favorites]


I signed up with Postcards to Voters just so I could send postcards to Alabama and tell people to go vote in the special election.

Let's make it so even if worst comes to worst and Roy Moore comes out unscathed, it's not without a fight. Look what happened on Tuesday when Democrats turned out to vote.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 5:16 PM on November 9 [28 favorites]


And so, for tribal reasons, America will get a situation where 40%+ of the population support the Treasonous Paedonazis (because if it's not them, it's the liberals and negroes and sodomites!), and with gerrymandering, voter suppression and the Electoral College, this translates to an unassailable succession of solid Treasonous Paedonazi administrations.
posted by acb at 5:16 PM on November 9 [6 favorites]


Moore's campaign is currently sending out fundraising emails on this news, telling "God-fearing conservatives" to ignore "the Obama-Clinton Machine's liberal media lapdogs".
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:19 PM on November 9 [1 favorite]


And this would be different from most of the past United States history how?
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:20 PM on November 9


Um guys I admit I have not been paying attention to election threads 100% of the time but weren't we, like, kinda optimistic about Doug Jones earlier? Did we seriously just collectively become MORE convinced of a Roy Moore win because of this news? (I mean, this country hates women so much that I suppose one could actually make a case for that, but damn, that's dark even for metafilter)

Postcards to Voters is writing for Doug Jones. I recommend it.
posted by sunset in snow country at 5:20 PM on November 9 [50 favorites]


Doug Jones will get more support than a Democrat in Alabama generally gets but I for one have never been particularly optimistic about actually winning. The Republican electorate is just too far gone. Change will only be effected one funeral (NATURAL CAUSES PLS) at a time.
posted by Justinian at 5:23 PM on November 9 [7 favorites]


Two parts performative despair, one part debate over whether the people of Alabama are Bad or The Worst.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 5:28 PM on November 9 [3 favorites]


Can't speak for others, but I for one am not despairing, I'm fucking angry.
posted by Justinian at 5:29 PM on November 9 [26 favorites]


one part debate over whether the people of Alabama are Bad or The Worst.

Luckily we have the definitive test case, Alabama is either redeemable, or we should write it and everyone in it off and start thinking seriously about resettlement initiatives for internal referees. We're going to find out.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:31 PM on November 9 [5 favorites]


This is not a problem with alabama. this is a problem with specifically white culture in alabama.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:33 PM on November 9 [29 favorites]


We can have extreme vetting of the refugees.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:36 PM on November 9 [2 favorites]


Please let’s not? In our political system, giving up on any state is dumb. What would it even mean? We can’t kick them out of the Union, and even if we could, we wouldn’t, because it would be shitty. It would mean abandoning the 37% of Alabama that is not insane or evil to the 63% that voted for 45.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:39 PM on November 9 [22 favorites]


I mean I get it. We've all had our hearts broken by white dude Democrats in the Deep South this year. I'm just saying, the tone was "Doug Jones is running a good race, cool, yay" and then the Republican turned out to be a literal child molester and now we're at performative despair? I know it's probably because we're just more focused on the race right now. I'm just saying. Get a grip, write some postcards, make the bastards work for it.
posted by sunset in snow country at 5:40 PM on November 9 [41 favorites]


This isn’t a problem with Alabama this is a problem with rape culture. Did we miss the bit where this time last year we elected a sex offender to be president?
posted by supercrayon at 5:58 PM on November 9 [34 favorites]


I have to admit, there's something simultaneously horrifying and delicious about seeing state party officials in Alabama say that a child abuser is preferable to a Democrat, or that child abuse is somehow holy. Like eating sashimi made from the Elder Gods.
posted by adamrice at 5:58 PM on November 9 [29 favorites]


Pretty sure this is a problem with rape culture and also Alabama.
posted by Artw at 6:02 PM on November 9 [7 favorites]


Personally I had no hope before or after this. This simply makes things even more horrifying, but it doesn't change my opinion of whats likely to happen in this special election (or even in next years elections).

Because I will be more surprised if people change their votes because of this than I would if they don't.
posted by thefoxgod at 6:09 PM on November 9


Did we seriously just collectively become MORE convinced of a Roy Moore win because of this news?

We are long past the time when simple pedophilia would do in a conservative candidate. Hell, the lesson has been to double down, because, well, conservative ideology has been whittled down to "fuck libtards".

So, yeah, you'll have to forgive the skepticism that Surely This would apply here.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 6:15 PM on November 9 [1 favorite]


Alabama is 26% African-American. I'm sure the vast majority of them vote Democratic. I am against abandoning them, or indeed anyone who votes Democratic or at least doesn't want a child molester as their Senator, to their fate.

Even if Howard Dean is no longer active in politics, we can (must) be our own 50-state strategy.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 6:17 PM on November 9 [51 favorites]


Did we seriously just collectively become MORE convinced of a Roy Moore win because of this news?

Pretty much.
posted by Artw at 6:17 PM on November 9 [9 favorites]


Sean Hannity's 100% going to bat for Moore right now. Every garbage rationalization imaginable, focusing on "well what if he's innocent." Started by reading out all of Moore's statements, text on-screen, without comment. Did an extended segment on Richard Jewell and the Duke Lacrosse case and Obama saying that cops acted stupidly. How Hannity's always right because he never rushes to judgment. Oh, and Bill Clinton did it too. Also the Clinton Foundation.

Hannity's the bathysphere of the jabbering TV heads, just ceaselessly sinking deeper.
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:19 PM on November 9 [5 favorites]


Gorka on Moore: "This is America. We don't call people guilty before the evidence is in."

Not hypocrisy when you realize that Gorka only considers Aryan men to be "people."
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:31 PM on November 9 [3 favorites]


FUUUUUCCCCCCKKKKKK surrender. We just saw Northam exceed polls by 6%, and huge unexpected gains in the VA HoD. Doug Jones is a better candidate than Northam and is only polling 10% below Moore, in Alabama, home of a 28 point Trump win. Only 10% BEFORE THIS. Yes, Alabama, tough road, etc. etc. But the fucking performative despair, hopelessness is infuriating. All the talk about 50 STATES, contest every election, etc. but when we're gifted a fucking opportunity here, we resort to 'never mind, it's Alabama?'

Goddammit, we may lose but we'll definitely lose with that attitude. We need to to fight this election every inch of the way and tie Moore and his vileness to the GOP every chance we get. Even if he wins, it can be a net loss to the party by us working hard doing the right and moral thing.
posted by chris24 at 6:33 PM on November 9 [105 favorites]


As long as we're oscillating wildly between calls for abolishing the Church and despair in the face of our fascist pedo overlords, let's bring back the conversation about creating a majority-black state in Dixie once *handwave* occurs.

Ok that's facetious but... we really do need to finish the work that the federal government abandoned when we pulled the military out of the occupied rebel states and ended Reconstruction.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:44 PM on November 9 [6 favorites]


I'm ordering postcards.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 6:57 PM on November 9 [8 favorites]


Justinian: "I hope you are correct and we should try to make sure you are correct but Alabama is not Virginia. Alabama went for Trump by 28 points. 28! Virginia went to Clinton by 5."

Moore also won his last statewide race 52-48. He's not just [GENERIC REPUBLICAN] on the ballot.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:58 PM on November 9 [19 favorites]


It’s Accused Pedophile Roy Moore. Get it right.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:08 PM on November 9 [13 favorites]




Personally, I already signed up to write postcards for Doug Jones, but I just upped the number I'm committing. You only have to commit to FIVE if you only want to dip your toe. Details.
posted by threeturtles at 7:11 PM on November 9 [11 favorites]


You Can't Tip a Buick: "the sticker price is full communism and the abolition of the church, the family, and the state."

Your sales pitch could use some work.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:15 PM on November 9 [8 favorites]


Sean Hannity's 100% going to bat for Moore right now.

These are Sean Hannity’s advertisers. Might be worth a call to ask them why they’re funding a show that supports and defends child rape.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:29 PM on November 9 [29 favorites]


Also, Hannity has a 15 year old daughter.

I wonder how he’d feel if some 30 something took her to a cabin to fondle her.

Maybe someone should ask him.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:34 PM on November 9 [22 favorites]


It’s unbelievable what so many GOP folks are going on the record supporting and defending.

Even if they believe it’s fake news concocted by the WaPo and the National Democrat Party, they are dressing themselves in filth.
posted by notyou at 7:35 PM on November 9 [3 favorites]


well, if nothing else, this will definitely win Moore the Libertarian vote
posted by indubitable at 7:39 PM on November 9 [1 favorite]


So Hannity just gave his daughter the go-ahead to hang out with that one teacher of hers?
posted by rhizome at 7:39 PM on November 9 [5 favorites]


I don't ever want to hear another goddamn thing about "values" or "morality" from US conservatives ever again.

They are going to bat for racists, Nazis, and pedophiles. "Deplorables" was not strong enough of a word.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 7:40 PM on November 9 [43 favorites]


internethippo on Twitter: "I made a bumper sticker he [Moore] can use for his campaign"
posted by dhens at 7:44 PM on November 9 [2 favorites]


Well, for one thing, lots of them are poor. Kind of makes it harder to move.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:47 PM on November 9 [7 favorites]


Very good twitter thread from Kathryn Brightbill, @KEBrightbill, on evangelicals, child brides, and why fundamentalist Christians are likely to see this as nbd.
posted by chaoticgood at 7:47 PM on November 9 [17 favorites]


Ugh, please let's not start the "fuck the Dems in red states; I'm tired of dealing with the majority of people there who aren't" derail again. It's ugly. It's been covered. No good slagging each other off.
posted by downtohisturtles at 7:49 PM on November 9 [28 favorites]


What the fuck are they still doing there?

Don't do this. 1. A lot of them don't have the means to move out, and 2. a lot of them, including a black woman with whom I went to grad school who grew up in rural Alabama (and who now teaches at a university back in Alabama, keeping up the good fight) don't want to leave, you know, their home.
posted by dhens at 7:49 PM on November 9 [50 favorites]


It's fascinating to me how many people have never loved a fucked-up place. I grew up in a really fucked-up place, and I don't live there anymore, but I love it, because it's *my* fucked-up place. It's home, and it always will be. I'm happy to outline the 17 ways in which it's fucked-up, but I will still defend the things about it which are beautiful, and I imagine that many people in Alabama feel the same way.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:51 PM on November 9 [37 favorites]


Shit like this is why my Muslim parents consider a good portion of Republicans and Evangelicals to be the Daesh and Taliban of America.

The sheer fucking depravity of defending Moore's pedophilia in the year 20-and fucking-17.
posted by yasaman at 7:55 PM on November 9 [30 favorites]


Right after the primary in which Moore won over Strange, I saw someone on FB from Alabama say that Moore's unpopularity with country club Republican types, the relative obscurity of the date, and the increased turnout for the Dems would make Jones much more competitive. Now I wonder how many dumbfucks who totally forgot that there was a special election will now go out and vote for Moore instead just to piss off the libs.
posted by dhens at 7:58 PM on November 9 [8 favorites]




CNN shade: This is what 44 seconds of GOP senators not responding to questions about Roy Moore sounds like

God what a bunch of ghouls. McConnell with that stupid rictus grin, whatever tiny amount of shame he still possesses eating him from the inside; Chuck Grassley literally waving things off; Orrin Hatch trying to call an end. Barf.
posted by dhens at 8:04 PM on November 9 [12 favorites]


God what a bunch of ghouls. McConnell with that stupid rictus grin, whatever tiny amount of shame he still possesses eating him from the inside; Chuck Grassley literally waving things off; Orrin Hatch trying to call an end. Barf.

That's the faces of men who know they'll never be voted out of office and who are amused by the fact that the media thinks that they can hold them accountable.
posted by Talez at 8:09 PM on November 9 [16 favorites]


Hypothetically, if more women (or children) came forward about Clarence Thomas (because you know Anita Hill can’t have been the only one) is there any mechanism by which a SCOTUS justice can be removed for bad behavior?
posted by Rumple at 8:54 PM on November 9 [3 favorites]


Congress can impeach Supreme Court justices (the standard in the Constitution is "The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behavior", so "bad behavior" is exactly the right phrase to use), though only one justice was ever impeached, and he wasn't convicted by the Senate. Another resigned under threat of impeachment.

It would require a 2/3rds vote of the Senate to convict.
posted by zachlipton at 9:05 PM on November 9 [8 favorites]


STATUS REPORT: The lone Roy Moore sign in my neck of the woods is now nowhere to be seen. Multiple Doug Jones signs, though.

Also, total coincidence, but the front page of the Tuscaloosa News this morning? Massive image of Roy Moore for an article about him saying the media is "distorting his image"... and directly above a photo of a group of young girls singing at one of his rallies.

Ew.
posted by Rhaomi at 9:24 PM on November 9 [29 favorites]


Yeah it's distorting his image, distorting into one that still appeals to some subset of humanity.
posted by rhizome at 9:39 PM on November 9


The White House weighs in, because surely that will help, right? (via Press Secretary Sarah Sanders):
Like most Americans the president believes we cannot allow a mere allegation, in this case one from many years ago, to destroy a persons life. However, the president also believes that *if these allegations are true, Judge Moore will do the right thing and step aside*. Regardless, the president must and will remain focused on representing our country on his historic trip to Asia, where he has been treated with great respect and made unprecedented progress in further strengthening alliances and promoting Americas interest above all else.
So we've got "mere allegation," an "if true," and somehow the belief that a child molester is interested in doing the right thing. Oh, and a "we're busy on other stuff, not our problem." It's a garbage statement bingo.
posted by zachlipton at 9:45 PM on November 9 [19 favorites]


If that blockquote is verbatim it’s missing an apostrophe and any humanity.
posted by notyou at 9:48 PM on November 9 [13 favorites]


The lack of an apostrophe, that you can blame on today's pool reporter, Mike Bender of the Wall Street Journal. The lack of humanity is entirely on Sanders and the President.
posted by zachlipton at 9:51 PM on November 9 [5 favorites]


For fuck's sake, it's supposed to be an anodyne official statement, and a "where he has been treated with great respect" still has to ooze its way in. 45 always needs to be coddled like a egg.

Press Secretary Sarah Sanders
Has she dropped the Huckabee?
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:37 PM on November 9 [9 favorites]


She didn't want to eat the meatloaf and Trump needed another dignity infusion so.
posted by Joe in Australia at 12:34 AM on November 10


"What the fuck are they still doing there?"

Don't do this. 1. A lot of them don't have the means to move out, and 2. a lot of them ... don't want to leave, you know, their home.
Thank you dhens.

I've lived in Alabama almost all of my life. Here is what I'm still doing here: (1) staying close to my surviving family -- including my older sister, her daughters, and their husbands and children; (2) staying in contact with a lot of friends, some of which I have known since grade school; (3) participating in an active music and arts scene that I've been a part of for in this area for more than 40 years; and (4) enjoying the quiet life in my house in the country that I bought less than a year ago.

I suppose that if I were to pick up and move to a solid blue state, I'd be around more people that share my political (Democratic) and religious (agnostic) views, but that would be small comfort for what I'd be giving up in the process.

And really, living here isn't as bad as you might think. Forget the movie and TV cliches -- lots of people in Alabama aren't ignorant redneck shitkickers (although I admit we may have a disproportionate share). Many of us are actually well educated, liberal-minded, decent people that you'd probably like if you got a chance.

I don't think that support for Moore in Alabama is as absolute as some commenters on this thread believe. Remember, he has been kicked out of his state supreme court position -- twice. Also, when he ran for governor a few years ago, he pretty much got his ass handed to him by the voters -- I think he finished in 4th place.

Of course Moore is propped up by the state Republican party -- that's why you are seeing all of these other GOP politicians defending him. However, I don't think he can count on unanimous voter support. His base -- the really rabid Moore fans -- love him more for his bible-thumping theatrics than for his Republicanism. For years, he has courted voters in their local churches, showing up on Sundays and making stump speeches from the pulpit. It's a good strategy for reaching people in this state where there's a church on just about every corner in towns and every few miles on every highway and county road.

The thing is though, many of these people who like Moore because their pastor was so nice to him that Sunday when he came and spoke to the assembly will absolutely change their minds if they decide that he's really a sinner. This is what happened to our last governor, Robert Bentley. Bentley narrowly won the 2010 Governor race in a runoff. During his first term, he courted the fundamentalist church crowd by opposing a state lottery, going after "illegal immigrants" and generally playing the devout christian role. As a result, he won re-election in 2014 by a landslide. However, when details started slipping out that he was in a relationship with a married woman, his former supporters turned on him throughout the state, leading to ethics charges and a move to begin impeachment. He resigned rather than face certain removal.

The thing that really seemed to tip the scales against Bentley in the eyes of his religious supporters was the publication of embarrassing texts between him and his lover. I don't know if this WaPo store about Trump will have the same effect on his base, but I hope it will. Maybe more details will appear as well.

By the way, this isn't the first time I've posted about Moore on the blue. When this thread started, I originally planned to sit this one out, then got annoyed by folks who seem to think that everyone in Alabama is a Jethro Bodine clone and felt like I needed to rant a little -- that's all I have to say about that.
posted by TwoToneRow at 3:06 AM on November 10 [111 favorites]


2006 doesn't seem like that long ago but ...this Metafilter thread has aged really poorly. Thank God people here don't make these kinds of arguments any more.

Just wow. That thread feels like it's coming from another universe, not twelve years ago. Bleh.
posted by octothorpe at 3:26 AM on November 10 [6 favorites]


@EWErickson: In light of this Roy Moore story, worth noting one of his prominent supporters is convinced the "anti-Trump GOP" is working with Democrats below the radar to hand this seat to the Dems. Says that's why it is so quiet over there.

@BillKristol
Retweeted Erick Erickson
As it happens I’ve not worked with Democrats “below the radar” in AL. But let me say loud and clear: I’d vote for Doug Jones over Roy Moore.

---

Still not used to Bill Kristol being right.
posted by chris24 at 4:06 AM on November 10 [32 favorites]


Just 2 years ago Moore was the sole judge basically arguing against the very concept of statutory rape.

@JuddLegum (ThinkProgress)
1. What multiple women are saying about Roy Moore puts his 2015 dissent in a child rape case in a different light - This is what Roy Moore has said about child abuse and sexual assault
2. That case involved a 17-year-old who was convicted of raping a 12-year-old at a daycare center
3. The 17-year-old, Eric Lemont Higdon, was convicted under two laws: One that made it a crime to have with sex with a child and another that was essentially a rape statute. The second conviction was overturned by an appeals court.
4. That's when the case came to Moore and the Alabama Supreme Court. 8 justices voted to reinstate the conviction. Moore was the only dissent.
5. Moore argued that "there was no evidence in this case of an implied threat of serious physical injury" so there was no evidence of a crime. All the other justices disagreed.
6. Moore essentially arguing that an adult (or near adult) having sex with a young teen is illegal but not necessarily rape unless there is affirmative evidence that the adult threatened or attacked the victim
posted by chris24 at 4:25 AM on November 10 [63 favorites]


Still not used to Bill Kristol being right.

Not only consistently right. Consistently standing on principles.
posted by leotrotsky at 4:30 AM on November 10 [10 favorites]


Like most Americans the president

I'm gonna stop you right there. Like, even if the next words are "is an endothermic biped" you're getting a raised eyebrow.
posted by uncleozzy at 4:41 AM on November 10 [39 favorites]


So I guess now the conservative Murdoch-owned WSJ is fake news and in on the Obama/Clinton conspiracy to oust Moore.

@TimJHanrahan (Deputy Bureau Chief, WSJ)
WSJ contacted several of the people quoted in the Post story, or people close to them:
- “I stand by the interview I gave the Washington Post"
- "I stand by my statement"
- “This happened, this is not fake news.”
WSJ: GOP Senators Say Roy Moore Should Quit Alabama Race If Sexual-Misconduct Claims Are True
posted by chris24 at 5:10 AM on November 10 [10 favorites]


WSJ has been useless except for house-training puppies for a long time now.
posted by mikelieman at 5:19 AM on November 10 [3 favorites]


they want people who aren't emotionally mature, people who can't see through their scams.

You are probably right that Roy Moore doesn’t have a DSM-V issue with prepubescent children, but I don’t give a fuck, because that’s between him and his therapist: he /engaged in sexual activity with a teenager as a full grown man/, and if people want to throw the ugliest words at him it is the most minor possible thing that is happening here.
posted by corb at 5:23 AM on November 10 [22 favorites]


WSJ has been useless except for house-training puppies for a long time now.

The five puppies in the house right now say that it's worth springing for the purpose-made products.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:32 AM on November 10 [11 favorites]


Fox News this morning: “Adam and Eve were less than one year old when they had sex”. [fake]
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:35 AM on November 10 [16 favorites]


The five puppies in the house right now say that it's worth springing for the purpose-made products.

I understand my mistake, and wish to revise and extend my comment, such that it reads, "WSJ has been useless except for house-training puppies for a long time now.
posted by mikelieman at 5:41 AM on November 10


WSJ has been useless except for house-training puppies for a long time now.

Their market journalism was top notch; the editorial line, however, was increasingly right-wing dusty-old-man gibberish. The latter, though, ended up infecting the former, during the 2016 Presidential campaign; apparently the editor, a British tabloid veteran named Gerard Barker, started chewing journalists out for bringing up facts that made Trump look bad (under the claim that it violated the WSJ's barrier between journalism and editorial opinion). From what I've heard, a lot of journalists have left. (Anecdotally, I know one who moved to a commodities trade newsletter or something; I don't know to what extent politics had anything to do with it, but I know that she was told that she couldn't be seen to publicly endorse any side of the Brexit referendum on her personal social media.)
posted by acb at 5:50 AM on November 10 [5 favorites]


@ddale8: After a long pause, Alabama Bibb County Republican chairman Jerry Pow tells me he'd vote for Roy Moore even if Moore did commit a sex crime against a girl.

"I would vote for Judge Moore because I wouldn't want to vote for Doug," he says. "I'm not saying I support what he did."


@JeffFlake
Retweeted Daniel Dale
Come on, Republicans. Is this who we are? This cannot be who we are.

---

Ron Howard Narrator Voice: This is who they are.
posted by chris24 at 5:50 AM on November 10 [84 favorites]


GOP = Gropers, Oligarchs, and Pedophiles
posted by entropicamericana at 5:53 AM on November 10 [29 favorites]


I'm really having a hard time taking Republicans seriously who are only now waking up to what a horrible shit-show their party is. It's been that way for generations.
posted by octothorpe at 6:26 AM on November 10 [16 favorites]


Folks who are postcarding for Jones: I recommend USPS prepaid postcards, which I've been able to find at every post office I've checked. They're 38 cents a pop (only 4 cents more than a postcard stamp), and completely blank on the back, leaving you an entire free side to write on. I've written 75 for the Alabama special election to date, and my lovely wife has just signed up as well. This is a statewide race, so it's going to take a LOT more volunteers writing get-out-the-vote postcards to Alabama Democrats than we currently have, and we have very little time to do it. SIGN UP!
posted by duffell at 6:38 AM on November 10 [22 favorites]


Still not used to Bill Kristol being right.

2017: Donald Trump is President, Chester the Molester is running for the Senate, and Bill Kristol is right. It's a mad house! A MAD HOUSE!!

I contributed to Doug Jones' campaign this morning. I'll do what I can.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:52 AM on November 10 [6 favorites]


In a Twin Peaks fan group I'm in, people were very excited about someone named Doug Jones running for office. It was a running gag for a while. Then people checked out his actual platform points, and they liked him even more. So if Jones does manage a win, thanks in some part should go to David Lynch. I think that's only fair.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:09 AM on November 10 [11 favorites]


If allegations had surfaced two weeks ago that Ralph Northam was a child molester, would people here honestly have looked at everything Ed Gillespie stood for and declared, "Ed Gillespie should be the governor of Virginia"?

I don't think this scandal is going to keep Roy Moore out of the Senate.
posted by indubitable at 7:22 AM on November 10


If allegations had surfaced two weeks ago that Ralph Northam was a child molester, would people here honestly have looked at everything Ed Gillespie stood for and declared, "Ed Gillespie should be the governor of Virginia"?

Certainly not, but neither would I have voted for, nor encouraged others to vote for, a child molester.
posted by Existential Dread at 7:28 AM on November 10 [22 favorites]


Libby Anne's summary of conservative vs. progressive sexual ethics is a simplified and concise way of understanding the GOP reaction to Roy Moore: it wasn't *sex* sex, he was looking to court them, blah blah. Consent and the ability to give it are not an important dimension of conservative sexual ethics.

In her write-up of the case, she notes that although Moore believed that youth crime could be prevented by teaching children the Ten Commandments, "there is nothing in the Ten Commandments about not sexually abusing children."
posted by palindromic at 7:40 AM on November 10 [9 favorites]


If allegations had surfaced two weeks ago that Ralph Northam was a child molester, would people here honestly have looked at everything Ed Gillespie stood for and declared, "Ed Gillespie should be the governor of Virginia"?

I don't think the hope is that Moore voters would flip to Jones, but that they would just stay home (or abstain from voting in this particular race).

Re: your hypothetical - When Northam made his sanctuary city blunder, losing the support of "the hard left" and DFA endorsement, it's not like those folks flipped to Gillespie.
posted by zakur at 7:43 AM on November 10 [10 favorites]


I think people here would have said "Ed Gillespie shouldn't be the Governor but given what our candidate did, he's going to have to be."

But people here have more principles than today's tribal voters tend to have.

A reminder that:

* The Crazification Factor is alive and growing. Moore could molest a teen during a live debate as his answer to a moderator's question and still get 27% against any Democrat.

* There are good people in Alabama, like everywhere else. The helicopters are ready when airlifts are finally needed, but until then I want them there fighting and representing Reality's side.

* There are plenty of people in Alabama, as noted upthread, who will look at a grown Moore "courting" teenage girls and think that it is proper and godly behavior. These won't be undecided voters, generally, but the base that Moore was going to ride to victory in the first place. So not too many will be swayed unless something far uglier comes out -- and this is not to describe obvious statutory rape as less than very, very ugly.
posted by delfin at 7:43 AM on November 10 [5 favorites]


There are good people in Alabama, like everywhere else.
This is important to remember. Don't make the mistake of polarizing yourself. That feeds into the nonsense and alienates potential allies. "Republican" does not equal evil, oddly enough, and neither does "evangelical" or "rural." Address the offenders, not their neighbors, families, and demographic.
posted by Peach at 7:46 AM on November 10 [6 favorites]


At this point I'm expecting that within two or three years there will be a contingent of GOP types who insist that their candidates be professed child molesters because it triggers the snowflakes.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:47 AM on November 10 [26 favorites]


Pretty sure that'll be around 2018.
posted by Artw at 7:53 AM on November 10 [4 favorites]


@MittRomney:
Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections. I believe Leigh Corfman. Her account is too serious to ignore. Moore is unfit for office and should step aside.


@mattyglesias:
Piously saying Moore “should” step aside seems meaningless.

The real question is: Given that Moore isn’t stepping aside, who should Alabama citizens vote for?
posted by chris24 at 8:25 AM on November 10 [18 favorites]


I would be satisfied with an answer of "not Moore" from the conscience-encumbered GOPers on that one. Returning to the Northam hypothetical, I'd certainly have been more inclined to write in Periello (were it possible) or leave the spot blank than vote for a racist neo-Confederate.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:34 AM on November 10 [4 favorites]


In the hypothetical there is no question whatsoever that Northam would be utterly vapourised, whereas in the case of Moore this is a slight bump in the road as he coasts to a win.

Also hypotheticals are stupid.
posted by Artw at 8:38 AM on November 10 [3 favorites]


In theory they aren't.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:39 AM on November 10 [29 favorites]


@JohnKasich:
I've long opposed Roy Moore & his divisive viewpoints. The actions described make him unfit for office. The GOP must not support him. He should step aside.
posted by chris24 at 8:41 AM on November 10 [18 favorites]


The election is December 12th. We have a month for this to either die down to a level where it'll be like it never happened, or for the Alabama RNC to ditch Moore and replace him with Luther Strange.

The former seems most likely. It's easier on their part. Which means that we've got to keep screaming about Moore's abuses until then, so the RNC and Moore's supporters can't ignore it.

I'm just waiting for someone in the Republican Party to bring up Pizzagate again as a response.
posted by SansPoint at 8:58 AM on November 10 [3 favorites]


Lots of debate on his Wikipedia page on whether this is worthy of mention. Lots of support for the position that this will all blow over and warrants a paragraph at most, not in the lede.
posted by Artw at 9:09 AM on November 10 [2 favorites]


Just 2 years ago Moore was the sole judge basically arguing against the very concept of statutory rape.

You know, tarring him with the "activist judge" brush might honestly turn more voters against him than the allegations will.
posted by solotoro at 9:12 AM on November 10 [8 favorites]


You know, tarring him with the "activist judge" brush might honestly turn more voters against him than the allegations will.

Also consider bending his surrogates' words ever-so-slightly to say "Roy Moore's camp says Jesus' father was a pedophile."
posted by duffell at 9:15 AM on November 10 [14 favorites]


The Mitt Romney statement is notable given that he's likely running for Senate soon. Prior forthright calls for leaving the race have been from people definitely not running again (McCain, Flake).
posted by Chrysostom at 9:15 AM on November 10 [8 favorites]


I have no idea what you guys do now. I mean how does the country not fracture forever when one political party is willing and eager to elect a predator (i mean besides trump)?? How do you pretend going forward that you are all in this together when it is so obviously not true. The Republicans are now the party of predators and there are no longer any limits as to what is acceptable. I despair for the world today that it has come to this.
posted by kanata at 9:15 AM on November 10 [5 favorites]


Which hypothetical attack ad plays better -- "Judge Moore let rapists out of jail" or "Judge Moore is soft of sex crimes"? (It pisses me off that this guy was ever on the bench. So much rape culture in action.)
posted by puddledork at 9:17 AM on November 10 [1 favorite]


> The Mitt Romney statement is notable given that he's likely running for Senate soon. Prior forthright calls for leaving the race have been from people definitely not running again (McCain, Flake).

I'm not sure which is more cowardly: doing the right thing only when you've decided not to run again, or doing the right thing only because you're going to run again and it's becoming less cool to do the wrong thing.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:17 AM on November 10 [4 favorites]


"Judge Moore" is the campaign's name for him. He's a twice-disgraced and twice-removed former judge. Let's not give him the benefit of an honorific.
posted by duffell at 9:20 AM on November 10 [18 favorites]


Josh Moon: There is no bottom for Roy Moore Republicans
What’s it going to take, Alabama voter?

What’s it going to take before you realize that your family values, my-sin-is-better-than-your-sin, conservative voting approach has produced a state government filled with lying, cheating, sexually assaulting, money-grubbing criminals who have embarrassed us countless times, and on top of everything, mismanaged the hell out of this place?

I’m serious.

Take a look around you.

We’re terrible as a state. We’re near the bottom in public education, medical care, infrastructure, economy and upward mobility and at the top in infant mortality, poverty, obesity and political corruption.

Our budgets are consistently a mess — we’re going to have to magically find $100 million somewhere next year — and our state services are so underfunded that they’re all but worthless. We’re short on troopers, courthouse workers, road crews, maintenance personnel and teachers.

This is what the Roy Moore Republican Party has brought Alabama.

A government built on greed and hatefulness, on shunning anything different and thumbing our nose at any hint of progress.

These people have convinced you that this is all some sort of a grand game, where we win by our chosen party maintaining control, instead of winning by electing men and women who best represent the actual interests of the people.

And this is where it’s left you.

Right now, you have a choice between two men. One of those men is most famous for courageously prosecuting the domestic terrorists who bombed a church and killed four girls. The other is most famous for being kicked off the Supreme Court twice for refusing to follow the law and for allegedly sexually assaulting a 14-year-old.

You’re doing Cirque du Soleil-level contortions to justify voting for the latter.

Let us know if you ever find that muddy bottom.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:21 AM on November 10 [91 favorites]


Just spotted on FB, something to the effect of: It's fascinating how a party that used to be obsessed with the safety of children in bathrooms is lining up to excuse Judge Moore.
posted by Gelatin at 9:29 AM on November 10 [62 favorites]


Editorial Board of the National Review:

Roy Moore Should Drop Out


Moore endorser Mike Lee:

Mike Lee wants Roy Moore to stop using his image on fundraising ads
posted by chris24 at 9:29 AM on November 10 [13 favorites]


Alabama Republicans not only okay with pedophilia, they want to prosecute the victims.
“The idea that accusations like this would stop his campaign is ludicrous. If this was a habit, like you’ve read with Bill Cosby and millions of dollars paid to settle cases and years of witnesses, that would be one thing,” Henry said. “You cannot tell me there hasn’t been an opportunity through the years to make these accusations with as many times as he’s (Moore) run (for office) and been in the news.

Henry said he believes legal action should be considered against Moore’s accusers, finding their story unbelievable.

“If they believe this man is predatory, they are guilty of allowing him to exist for 40 years. I think someone should prosecute and go after them. You can’t be a victim 40 years later, in my opinion,” Henry said.
Gee, wonder why women don't come forward Henry?

Sometimes I wish I wasn't an atheist so I could daydream about these fuckers burning in hell like they deserve.
posted by chris24 at 9:33 AM on November 10 [65 favorites]


They don't give a shit about the safety of children. What they *do* give a shit about is divisive social wedge issues they can exploit in order to convince citizens to vote against their own interests.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:33 AM on November 10 [5 favorites]


Roy Moore Should Drop Out

"Roy Moore Should Drop Out" is, as others have said, a way to look like you're Very Concerned and opposed to child molestation without actually being very concerned and opposed to child molestation. Because Moore isn't going to drop out. If you're actually concerned you say that people shouldn't vote for Roy Moore... or even that they should vote for *GASP* his opponent.

Note the NR piece actually says in its last paragraph that they expect Moore won't drop out and may well win... and that's it. They don't actually say what people should do if Moore doesn't drop out.
posted by Justinian at 9:36 AM on November 10 [10 favorites]


@KagroX
Even Roy Moore knew it was wrong for him to be pursuing a 14-year-old. That’s why he arranged to pick her up around the corner from her house. This is not rocket science.

---

@mkraju
Roy Moore's brother Jerry Moore told @MartinSavidge that Roy is being "persecuted" like "Jesus Christ was"

---

Ain't no victims like white male Christians.
posted by chris24 at 9:36 AM on November 10 [45 favorites]


Mike Lee wants Roy Moore to stop using his image on fundraising ads

Ha ha.

MAKE THEM BIGGER.
posted by Artw at 9:37 AM on November 10 [11 favorites]


John McCain: Moore should step down [but if he doesn't, you should vote for him anyway]
Mitt Romney: Moore should step down [but if he doesn't, you should vote for him anyway]
Lindsey Graham: Moore should step down [but if he doesn't, you should vote for him anyway]
National Review: Moore should step down [but if he doesn't, you should vote for him anyway]
etc. etc. etc.

If you're not willing to explicitly endorse his opponent or a specific write-in, then that last part is implicit. Spare me the hand-wringing if you don't have the courage of your convictions to actually specify a remedy.
posted by 0xFCAF at 9:47 AM on November 10 [24 favorites]


> Roy Moore's brother Jerry Moore told @MartinSavidge that Roy is being "persecuted" like "Jesus Christ was"

I'm not a Christian, but if I were - in the sense that I actually believed in and did my best to follow Christ's teachings instead of just identifying myself as a member of that tribe and leaving it at that - I would imagine shit like this would seem pretty fucking blasphemous.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:49 AM on November 10 [17 favorites]


Well, if this ends up with Moore literally nailed to a cross, maybe it was worth it.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:54 AM on November 10 [18 favorites]


...

I'm ok with simple disgrace, thanks. (Since we're past the statute of limitations on his crime(s).)
posted by Justinian at 9:59 AM on November 10


I haven't checked myself, but several people have said that there is no statute of limitation for sexual assault on a child in Alabama.
posted by tavella at 10:02 AM on November 10


Oh, if thats the case then by all means... LOCK HIM UP!
posted by Justinian at 10:03 AM on November 10 [7 favorites]


Gorka on Moore:

ew. just eeeewwww.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 10:04 AM on November 10 [1 favorite]


And now the alt-right is doxxing a victim on twitter.
posted by drezdn at 10:12 AM on November 10 [1 favorite]


Katy Tur has clearly had enough. She's asking questions to Republicans like "What does it say about your party that they would rather elect a pedophile than a Democrat?" and "Are you still a Republican?".
posted by Justinian at 10:14 AM on November 10 [87 favorites]


Not surprising, but still...
The Republican National Committeeman from Alabama, Paul Reynolds, said that he trusts Vladimir Putin more than Moore’s accusers. “My gosh, it's The Washington Post. If I’ve got a choice of putting my welfare into the hands of Putin or The Washington Post, Putin wins every time,” he told The Hill. “This is going to make Roy Moore supporters step up to the plate and give more, work more and pray more.”
posted by chris24 at 10:15 AM on November 10 [23 favorites]


>there is no statute of limitation for sexual assault on a child in Alabama.

There isn't now, but there was a statue of limitations at the time Moore committed his crimes, and that statute had run out (on at least some of the offenses he committed). There is no statute of limitations for crimes committed after January 7th, 1985. If other victims from after that date come forward, they could press charges.

(Is my not-necessarily-correct understanding.)
posted by cjelli at 10:21 AM on November 10 [5 favorites]


Daily Beast: Senate GOP Campaign Arm Severs Financial Ties To Roy Moore

You may now commence with "no moore" puns.
posted by lalex at 10:22 AM on November 10 [14 favorites]


"Republican" does not equal evil, oddly enough, and neither does "evangelical" or "rural."

With you on those last two, but we're quickly approaching the point of no return with the Republican party. There are plenty of people who are members of the party because of their memory of the party, or their notion of what the party *should* be, and I get that. However, at a certain point, the party is so repugnant that anyone of conscious will have left the party, and membership is symbol of tacit support of the behavior of its worst members.

Remember, membership of a political party is still voluntary. Those who choose to call themselves Republican in 2017 are saying they stand with men like Roy Moore.
posted by explosion at 10:24 AM on November 10 [22 favorites]


Republican Rep. Peter King [R-NY-02] on Roy Moore to MSNBC: “It's so hideous. I would say, unless he can prove his innocence the burden is now on him, within the next day or so I believe he has to step down.”
posted by Chrysostom at 10:28 AM on November 10 [15 favorites]


“My gosh, it's The Washington Post. If I’ve got a choice of putting my welfare into the hands of Putin or The Washington Post, Putin wins every time,” he told The Hill. “

I love the “my gosh.” It’s important to retain that aw-shucks small-town demeanour even while you’re publicly proclaiming your allegiance to a murderous authoritarian strongman who leads a state hostile to American interests over a U.S. newspaper.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:30 AM on November 10 [54 favorites]


PSA: Please tell your Republican friends in Alabama that they can write in Ron Bishop for U.S. Senate instead of voting for the disgusting Roy Moore.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:31 AM on November 10 [3 favorites]


Opinion-Savvy/Decision Desk are out with a new poll of AL-Sen: Roy Moore 46.4%, Doug Jones 46%.

I really want to caution people that I don't know anything about the quality of this poll.
posted by lalex at 10:34 AM on November 10 [5 favorites]


I really want to caution people that I don't know anything about the quality of this poll.

Opinion Savvy with a different partner than Decision Desk is rated C- by 538.
posted by chris24 at 10:39 AM on November 10 [3 favorites]


Not a great polling firm but not a fake one either, it's a real poll.
posted by Justinian at 10:41 AM on November 10 [2 favorites]


Opinion Savvy with a different partner than Decision Desk is rated C- by 538.

I saw that, but I wish 538 would update those rankings past August 2016. Seeing people say that the Opinion-Savvy/DD polls were pretty good for the AL primary. Certainly the folks at Decision Desk know a lot about elections. I just don't know.
posted by lalex at 10:42 AM on November 10 [1 favorite]


I don't think any really well-regarded pollsters have been in this race. FWIW, apparently both campaigns are saying their internals are like 5-7 for Moore.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:43 AM on November 10


JMC is teasing that their new poll shows Jones doing well.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:58 AM on November 10 [5 favorites]


Crosstabs of the poll show that the allegations appear to have cost Moore about 7 points among women but support among men remains unchanged. Uggh.
posted by Justinian at 10:59 AM on November 10 [40 favorites]


OK, I need a volunteer Alabama state legislator to introduce a bathroom bill saying that if someone is accused of sexually assaulting minors by, oh, let's say two or three witnesses, they're not allowed to use any public bathrooms in the state.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:18 AM on November 10 [32 favorites]


I'm not a Christian, but if I were - in the sense that I actually believed in and did my best to follow Christ's teachings instead of just identifying myself as a member of that tribe and leaving it at that - I would imagine shit like this would seem pretty fucking blasphemous.

Con-fucking-firmed.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:18 AM on November 10 [10 favorites]


Crosstabs of the poll show that the allegations appear to have cost Moore about 7 points among women but support among men remains unchanged.

Opinion unchanged on that "republican equals evil" thing.
posted by Artw at 11:20 AM on November 10 [5 favorites]


What if the NSDAP but overt sexual predators
posted by theodolite at 11:27 AM on November 10


Doug Jones now with a nominal lead!
Moore is tied with Democrat Doug Jones in a poll conducted Thursday by Atlanta-based Opinion Savvy. Moore led by 5.7 percent in the organization’s Sept. 29 survey.

The poll, conducted for Decision Desk HQ, found that an overwhelming majority of those surveyed, 82 percent, were aware of the allegations, and that 54 percent didn’t think Moore should drop out. Among all Republicans surveyed, 72.9 percent thought he should remain in the contest. The election is Dec. 12.

The poll of 515 voters asked respondents if they would vote for Moore, Jones or write in Republican Senator Luther Strange, who lost to Moore in last month’s Republican primary. In that scenario, Jones led with 43.6 percent, while Moore drew 41.3 percent and Strange received 12.3 percent.
posted by Rhaomi at 11:39 AM on November 10 [6 favorites]


Well, when even reliably awful Jessie Watters from Fox is against you...
“[I]f these allegations are true, I feel horrible for these women,” Watters said. “It’s disgusting. Even just the allegation itself. It’s not just one person. It’s multiple people.”

Watters went on to call for the judge to withdraw.

“[T]he whole cloud, the whole stench around this guy, I don’t see how he can represent Alabama in the U.S. Senate,” Watters said. “Politics is a dirty business. Innocent until proven guilty. But this doesn’t seem like that. To me, I’m just not getting that feeling. I think he should step down, do the decent thing.”
posted by chris24 at 11:44 AM on November 10 [5 favorites]


@greg_garrison (Birmingham News)
I just asked Gov. Kay Ivey if she found the word of the four women accusing Roy Moore trustworthy. "Why wouldn't it be?" she said.
posted by chris24 at 11:52 AM on November 10 [33 favorites]


Given how unlikely it is that Moore will step down, how useful would it be to target Alabama Republicans with Facebook ads saying "Stand with President Trump. Write in LUTHER STRANGE for the December 12 special election," and how icky would I feel doing it?
posted by duffell at 11:53 AM on November 10 [12 favorites]


***For anyone who needs a break from the types of heavy subjects and topics raised in this post. Head on over to MetaTalk and share some MetaHappy.***
posted by Fizz at 11:54 AM on November 10 [5 favorites]


A tweet from a Birmingham lawyer: "I'll defend any victim sued by Moore pro bono. Look forward to deposing Moore. Further, by suing the victims, the statute of limitations on compulsory counterclaims are waived."
posted by mcduff at 12:04 PM on November 10 [81 favorites]


Republican congresswoman Barbara Comstock (VA), who faces a *tough* reelection next year, especially after Tuesday's results, has a statement on Moore.
"Harvey Weinstein, Anthony Weiner, Roger Ailes, Roy Moore... No MOORE of this... 4 women have come forward with detailed stories about Roy Moore. Their stories are confirmed through numerous sources who knew of the actions at the time or well before now. I believed the stories from the victims of Harvey Weinstein, Roger Ailes and others because they were substantiated and consistent with the stories of how sexual predators operate. To date Roy Moore has not provided any credible explanation or response to the detailed allegations, particularly the allegations by a woman who was at the time a 14 year old girl and Roy Moore was a 32 year-old assistant district attorney. The defense from some of his supporters is beyond disturbing. Today, the National Review Editorial board also set out the case against Roy Moore and why he should drop out. Roy Moore should not serve in the U.S. Senate."
posted by chris24 at 12:07 PM on November 10 [40 favorites]


I know I encouraged the NO MOORE pun above but it actually comes off terribly in a serious press statement.
posted by lalex at 12:08 PM on November 10 [19 favorites]


> I know I encouraged the NO MOORE pun above

You are a terrible person and should feel bad. Also, please NO MOORE bad puns! It's more PUNishment than I can bear.
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:15 PM on November 10 [4 favorites]


AL NO MOORE YOU KNOW THE SCORE
posted by Artw at 12:20 PM on November 10 [3 favorites]


I see the Republicans saying "if these allegations are true, he should step aside." What are they looking for? An 8mm reel of Moore molesting a girl? Because barring that, or a confession from Moore, what would prove this? You have the accuser. You have the accused. There were no witnesses. They already know that she told some people at the time.

They're saying this so that when (I'm still pessimistic about Alabama, given that it used to have Yellow Dog Democrats, back when the Democrats were the party of "fuck all non-honkies") Moore is elected they can say "it was never proved, let's move on." Unless they're telling him to drop out and for people to write in Strange or another (R), they're happy to have a child molester as a colleague.
posted by Hactar at 12:22 PM on November 10 [12 favorites]


This week, my household switched from VA postcards to AL postcards.
posted by MtDewd at 12:23 PM on November 10 [7 favorites]


It's a way of looking concerned without actually being concerned - a thoughts and prayers, basically. Hoping this all goes away but covering their asses in case it doesn't.
posted by Artw at 12:24 PM on November 10 [5 favorites]


In answer to why didn't the local press get this out sooner.

#1. Strom Thurmond. A sixty year political career and his affair with a black teenager never came out until after his death.
#2. Larry Craig. He manage to successfully quash stories that he was a homosexual for about 25 years.
#3. Bill Cosby. It took forty-some years.
#4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9... lots of recent headlines.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:33 PM on November 10 [11 favorites]


duffell: "Given how unlikely it is that Moore will step down, how useful would it be to target Alabama Republicans with Facebook ads saying "Stand with President Trump. Write in LUTHER STRANGE for the December 12 special election," and how icky would I feel doing it?"

I was thinking basically the exact same thing. Except the slogan was going to be somethin glike "Write-in Luther Strange, the Republican who's not an embarrassment to Alabama."
posted by mhum at 12:38 PM on November 10 [2 favorites]


National Treasure Alexandra Petri, Jesus, Mary and Joseph: The Roy Moore story:
I don’t know that I’m surprised that this kind of predation isn’t a career-ender. (Look around! Look around! How lucky we are to be alive right now!) After all, it has already been established that Moore is a bunch of bibles under a judge’s robe who does not care for the Constitution or rule of law and thinks that Muslim faith should disqualify people from holding office, and people kept funneling him money and support in spite of that.

The new GOP motto is the sorority classic: “Right or wrong, do it strong.” Still, it makes me wonder: Is anything enough? Suppose it were to surface between now and the election that Moore was guilty of murder and cannibalism.

Here is my best guess of the Republican response:
posted by zachlipton at 12:39 PM on November 10 [12 favorites]


I mean, I think he's an embarrassment, but I'm trying to appeal to the on-the-fence Republican voter who might need that little nudge to not vote for Moore.
posted by mhum at 12:39 PM on November 10 [1 favorite]


@bshelburne
#WBRC just spoke to Leigh Corfman, Roy Moore's accuser. "I stand by my comments. The article is very detailed, anyone with questions should please re-read it. And I want to say thank you to my friends and others who have supported me and my story."
posted by chris24 at 12:52 PM on November 10 [37 favorites]


Unless they're telling him to drop out and for people to write in Strange or another (R), they're happy to have a child molester as a colleague

I saw on the Twitter that we're starting to see a sharp divide in the GOP between those who support Moore enthusiastically and those who support Moore reluctantly.
posted by Justinian at 12:53 PM on November 10 [27 favorites]


I saw on the Twitter that we're starting to see a sharp divide in the GOP between those who support Moore enthusiastically and those who support Moore reluctantly.

Maybe it's my residual bitterness, but I don't care if you're gleeful or reluctant in your support for evil people doing evil things. And that's pretty much all I have to say to Republicans right now, "reluctant" or not.

Stand up, or don't. Don't expect me to feel sorry about the rot you fostered in your own damn party, or the rot you're "having" to support.
posted by sciatrix at 12:56 PM on November 10 [14 favorites]


Given how unlikely it is that Moore will step down, how useful would it be to target Alabama Republicans with Facebook ads saying "Stand with President Trump. Write in LUTHER STRANGE for the December 12 special election," and how icky would I feel doing it?"

1. They’re going to find out those ads are happening and try to find out who authorized them.

2. If they successfully find out it was a Dem, they just have to publicize it for Rs to vote Moore in lockstep.

3. If they don’t find out it’s a Dem, and they lose or come close to losing, they learn the tactic and then we have weaponized false social media advertising everywhere which is the world on flames.
posted by corb at 1:04 PM on November 10 [5 favorites]


... they learn the tactic and then we have weaponized false social media advertising everywhere ...

I have some bad news.
posted by odinsdream at 1:11 PM on November 10 [43 favorites]


4. You learn about FEC filing requirements after the fact, which sounds painfully expensive.
posted by zachlipton at 1:12 PM on November 10 [11 favorites]


I think that was Justinian's joke/point, sciatrix.
posted by Chrysostom at 1:17 PM on November 10 [7 favorites]


1. They’re going to find out those ads are happening and try to find out who authorized them.

2. If they successfully find out it was a Dem, they just have to publicize it for Rs to vote Moore in lockstep.


What if we launch the ads from Russia and pay for them in rubles?
posted by saturday_morning at 1:18 PM on November 10 [16 favorites]


John Oliver on Roy Moore.

Via TMS.
posted by homunculus at 1:25 PM on November 10 [1 favorite]


Hey, can we stay on track? This thread is getting a little unmoored.
posted by loquacious at 1:25 PM on November 10 [3 favorites]


I guess Hannity is interviewing Moore on the radio right now and it's... not great.

"Roy Moore says "I don't remember dating any girl without the permission of her mother"" - Ben Jacobs

Excuse me while I go childproof all of my cabinets because MY SKIN IS CRAWLING EVERYWHERE.
posted by marshmallow peep at 1:29 PM on November 10 [46 favorites]


According to Twitter, Moore seems to be giving a very, erm, strange interview with Hannity right now.

Roy Moore, asked if he remembers dating girls that young, responds "not generally, no."

Roy Moore says "I don't remember dating any girl without the permission of her mother"

Roy Moore on Hannity, asked about whether he ever dated girls as young as 16: "I don't dispute that."


(All links to Twitter accounts of the interview. I am not personally listening to it.)
posted by scarylarry at 1:29 PM on November 10 [18 favorites]


So Moore's interview with Hannity is insane.

Asked if he remembered dating any girls that young, he says "Not generally, no." Not a denial. At all.

Says he remembers one of the girls and maybe they did go on dates but he can't remember for sure.

He says he always asked the mothers' permission to take out girls. And says the mothers encouraged the girls to be friends with him.
posted by chris24 at 1:29 PM on November 10 [5 favorites]


So one of those alt-right Nazi GamerGate etc types doxxed one of the alleged victims. Every year is 2014, for ever and ever.
posted by Yowser at 1:30 PM on November 10 [4 favorites]


As a 42 year old, I always make sure to get the mother's permission before dating, particularly on school nights? I guess? Jesus fuck.
posted by Justinian at 1:34 PM on November 10 [23 favorites]


So one of those alt-right Nazi GamerGate etc types doxxed one of the alleged victims. Every year is 2014, for ever and ever.

It was Jack Posobiec of PizzaGate and Rape Melania fame. And it was up for hours before HE took it down. Twitter never did shit. And still haven't since they haven't suspended his account. Remember they instantly suspended Rose McGowan for having a phone number in a tweet.

And the prick claims now he was just sharing something Heavy.com had shared in an article, but he's lying. Heavy blurred the face in the pic, Jack's pic was unblurred.
posted by chris24 at 1:35 PM on November 10 [32 favorites]


John Oliver on Roy Moore.

The record will show we were way ahead of him on Sen. Bees.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:36 PM on November 10 [3 favorites]


and like. ugh. "i asked their mothers!" feels like a wink at conservative women, like he's saying "see ladies? i'm on YOUR side! i asked the mothers and not the fathers! that's how much i respect women!"
posted by poffin boffin at 1:45 PM on November 10 [12 favorites]




@samstein
Unless I’m missing something Moore is kind of admitting that he may have made out with teenagers while in his 30s but didn’t give them alcohol and didn’t go after a 14 year old
posted by chris24 at 1:47 PM on November 10 [9 favorites]


Hey, can we stay on track? This thread is getting a little unmoored.

hit the road jack, and don't ya come back no moore no moore no moore no moore...
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 1:48 PM on November 10 [5 favorites]


Alex Burns (NYT): "I'm sure in the next four weeks, they're going to come out with another article" – Roy Moore, saying on the radio what every R who wants him out of the race is saying in private

His advisor said yesterday there would be more attacks. More shoes to drop.

@DavidMDrucker (Washington Examiner, CNN)
#ALSEN: @MooreSenate advisor Dean Young called me back to add he expects more attacks directed at Moore: "If the people fail this test, our country is hanging in the balance. If they can beat Judge Moore, they can beat anybody."
posted by chris24 at 1:50 PM on November 10 [6 favorites]


I hope someone follows up with those mothers. The likelihood that he completely misrepresented his intentions to them seems... 100%-ish?
posted by clawsoon at 1:52 PM on November 10 [5 favorites]


Apparently in the case of the 17 year old her mother thought she was the 'luckiest girl'. Unfortunately, it's not exactly unusual for women in this kind of subculture to be active, eager enablers of abuse.
posted by tavella at 1:56 PM on November 10 [16 favorites]


@AdamSerwer (Atlantic)
Roy Moore has put the Republicans who said "if true" in a difficult position of defending dating 16 year olds when you're 30 or un-endorsing him given that he's confirmed that he did.


@kylegriffin1 (MSNBC)
Roy Moore alleges that he has "evidence of collusion" (doesn't go into greater detail about what that means), but says he's not ready to make that evidence public yet.
posted by chris24 at 1:56 PM on November 10 [8 favorites]


"I'm sure in the next four weeks, they're going to come out with another article"

Moore's strident defense is that there is definitely more dirt on him yet to be uncovered? I mean, he's probably not wrong, but that's not the case I'd be making for myself.
posted by 0xFCAF at 1:57 PM on November 10 [18 favorites]


Clearly he's afraid there's proof. Letters or something that will show he's lying, or more women. The comment about more articles, the admitting/waffling. The only thing he denied today was the 14 year old and the alcohol, the two clearly illegal things. Everything else, which are morally reprehensible but probably not illegal acts, he spun or admitted.
posted by chris24 at 2:05 PM on November 10 [10 favorites]


Roy Moore alleges that he has "evidence of collusion" (doesn't go into greater detail about what that means), but says he's not ready to make that evidence public yet.

At this point if collusion isn't the new "fake news" they desperately want it to be.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:13 PM on November 10 [3 favorites]


Can a person be more Trumpily guilty?
posted by Artw at 2:15 PM on November 10 [4 favorites]


I walked away from this thread for two hours and I come back to find - what?
Roy Moore, asked if he remembers dating girls that young, responds "not generally, no."

Roy Moore says "I don't remember dating any girl without the permission of her mother"

Roy Moore on Hannity, asked about whether he ever dated girls as young as 16: "I don't dispute that."
How the hell was this creep elected CHIEF JUSTICE of Alabama - TWICE?

And he's the Republican nominee for the US Senate?

AM I GOING INSANE? WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE?
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:16 PM on November 10 [6 favorites]


america is happening as per usual
posted by poffin boffin at 2:18 PM on November 10 [25 favorites]


@taragolshan (Vox)
Roy Moore appears to be confirming parts of the Washington Post story.
Most Republican senators couched their disavowals with something akin to "if there's an ounce of truth to any of this."


@philipaklein (Managing Editor of the conservative Washington Examiner)
Following the Hannity interview, there is very little reason to doubt the veracity of the Washington Post story. Republicans should adjust their statements accordingly.


@ddale8 (Toronto Star)
In 24 hours, Roy Moore has gone from “fake news and intentional defamation” to “out of my customary behaviour” and “not generally.”
- Moore seemed completely unprepared for Hannity to ask him semi-journalistic questions, perhaps having watched Hannity interview Trump.
posted by chris24 at 2:18 PM on November 10 [37 favorites]


Roy Moore on Hannity, asked about whether he ever dated girls as young as 16 [while he was 32]: "I don't dispute that."

Not even "a girl" but girls. How is this not an immediate shunned-by-everyone, not-mentioned-in-polite-company, career ender?

I have to believe that gravity kicks in here, and he drops out in the next 24 hours. He has to, come on.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:24 PM on November 10 [5 favorites]


I heard an interview with the person who researched the story. For the second girl, she was sixteen, worked at a mall for her mother who owned a store, and he repeatedly asked her out while her mother firmly told him to get lost. There was never a universe where this was considered normal or okay. It has shades of Harvey Weinstein like predation all over it. There's no doubt other girls are going to come out of the woodwork. The Republicans are crazy to defend him, especially now.
posted by xammerboy at 2:24 PM on November 10 [20 favorites]


The only way "if there is any truth to this" works is if you are totally unfamiliar with the number of women coming forward and all the witnesses and details that back it up. This is not "he said, she said." People need to understand that.
posted by xammerboy at 2:28 PM on November 10 [4 favorites]


WaPo: Moore dated underge girls.
Pro-Moore GOP: There's no truth to this!
Other GOP: If true he should stand down.
Moore: It's true but nbd.

So...waiting to see what the responses will be. The Pro-Moore GOP swore it wasn't happening and he just confirmed it was. The rest of the GOP said if true he should step aside, and he just said it was true.

Your move chuckles.
posted by supercrayon at 2:28 PM on November 10 [9 favorites]


Have any of the “If this is true” can-kickers responded to a follow-up since the Hannity non-denial confession?
posted by scarylarry at 2:31 PM on November 10 [2 favorites]


One of the 30 sources (I'm assuming) has gone public.

@LaurenWalshTV (ABC Birmingham)
Mike Ortiz says he dated Corfman (Roy Moore’s accuser) for 2 years around 2009.
He says during that time, she told him about a sexual encounter w/ Moore when she was young.
Again: Moore calls these claims “completely false & a desperate political attack.”
#ALSen

VIDEO
posted by chris24 at 2:31 PM on November 10 [15 favorites]


Presumably Hannity was tossing softballs at Moore, not realizing that if someone is actually a guilty moron, throwing softballs is absolutely the easiest way to destroy them. They will knock it out of the park, in the wrong direction, if that was how baseball worked.
posted by 0xFCAF at 2:34 PM on November 10 [11 favorites]


tavella: Apparently in the case of the 17 year old her mother thought she was the 'luckiest girl'. Unfortunately, it's not exactly unusual for women in this kind of subculture to be active, eager enablers of abuse.

Jesus. (But surely even in that case he led the mother to think "daughter will get married to powerful, loyal man who will protect her" rather than "one of many teenaged girls he will 'date'"? Surely?)
posted by clawsoon at 2:37 PM on November 10 [3 favorites]


I mean look, I'm NOT saying the FB ad thing is a great idea, but:

1. They’re going to find out those ads are happening and try to find out who authorized them.

Isn't the whole thing with FB political ads in these Congressional hearings that there's no requirement to identify oneself when running political ads?

2. If they successfully find out it was a Dem, they just have to publicize it for Rs to vote Moore in lockstep.

See 1.

3. If they don’t find out it’s a Dem, and they lose or come close to losing, they learn the tactic and then we have weaponized false social media advertising everywhere which is the world on flames.

I hate to be the first person to tell you this, but um, I have really bad news for you about the 2016 election.
posted by duffell at 2:38 PM on November 10 [4 favorites]


Is there a write up of the Hanniy interview with all this?
posted by Artw at 2:40 PM on November 10




Unfortunately, it's not exactly unusual for women in this kind of subculture to be active, eager enablers of abuse.

Yeah, if he told them he was looking for a wife there are women who would lay down the red carpet in those kinds of cultures. Unfortunately, which seems to be the defense he is going with.

Also in vomit inducing news, people are actually being motivated to donate to his campaign now because they think he’s being falsely accused. I hate everything.
posted by corb at 2:54 PM on November 10 [1 favorite]


Not even "a girl" but girls. How is this not an immediate shunned-by-everyone, not-mentioned-in-polite-company, career ender?

I was just thinking, every sitcom I can think of has some hurf-durf episode about men fantasizing over Catholic schoolgirls or cheerleaders. It is super normalized for adult men to specifically seek out teenage girls. There's a veneer of "it's wrong if they're not 18!!" but I think what we see here is the gross, churning, vast undercurrent of excuses and justifications for crossing that line when so many other cultural signals encourage sexualizing teenagers.

Does anyone else remember the websites with literal countdowns to the day Emma Watson turned 18?
posted by nakedmolerats at 2:58 PM on November 10 [15 favorites]


He essentially admitted to 3/4 of the allegations. How deluded do you have to be to be convinced he's being falsely accused?
posted by Justinian at 2:58 PM on November 10 [9 favorites]


@SenMikeLee: Having read the detailed description of the incidents, as well as the response from Judge Moore and his campaign, I can no longer endorse his candidacy for the US Senate.
posted by zachlipton at 3:02 PM on November 10 [35 favorites]


Not even "a girl" but girls. How is this not an immediate shunned-by-everyone, not-mentioned-in-polite-company, career ender?

Because most of these men don't think there's anything especially wrong with lusting after teenage girls, or indeed, even acting on that lust. That's one of the big horrors of stories like this coming out: finding out just how many men don't think there's anything wrong. Watch how many men remain silent now that Moore has all but admitted to sexually pursuing sixteen year olds. Watch how many men "joke" about it, watch how many men hem and haw about whether it's really wrong, watch how many men "well actually..." about how it's legal, watch how many men default to slutshaming teenage girls.
posted by yasaman at 3:09 PM on November 10 [32 favorites]


Also withdrawing his endorsement, Sen. Steve Daines: I am pulling my endorsement and support for Roy Moore for U.S. Senate.
posted by scarylarry at 3:09 PM on November 10 [19 favorites]


nakedmolerats: I was just thinking, every sitcom I can think of has some hurf-durf episode about men fantasizing over Catholic schoolgirls or cheerleaders.

Hey, wasn't there a critically-acclaimed movie starring Kevin Spacey about that?
posted by clawsoon at 3:11 PM on November 10 [24 favorites]


If the Republicans were smart they would repudiate Moore now because he is Bannon's choice andhis first step in replacing most of the Senate with his choices. Lindsey Graham, Mitch McConnell, and others should go to war against Bannon because he has already declared war on them.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:11 PM on November 10 [8 favorites]


CNN: GOP Rep: Allegations against Moore 'disgusting'

Rep Adam Kinzinger (R - IL) told Jake Tapper he believes the allegations against Roy Moore and that GOP should expel him from senate if he wins.

VIDEO
posted by chris24 at 3:14 PM on November 10 [16 favorites]


If the Republicans were smart they would repudiate Moore now

The only real choice available, if they were moral, is to surrender the Alabama Senate seat to a Democrat. And they aren't that moral.

There is no way for them to both win that race and repudiate Moore. If they repudiate Moore it won't get his name off the ballot as the Republican candidate, the best they could do is try and promote a Republican write in candidate, and all that'd do is split the vote and hand it to the Democrat.

Either they take Moore and try to win with him, or they give up that seat in the Senate.

The moral choice is to give up that seat in the Senate. But the Republican Party is simply incapable of doing what is moral. They're already at the skin of their teeth and failing critical Senate votes, losing one more Senator would be a catastrophe for their entire agenda.

And they value their agenda more than they value protecting children from predators like Moore.
posted by sotonohito at 3:20 PM on November 10 [12 favorites]


Cruz, Paul, Cornyn, Lee and Raines endorsed. 2 of 5 have withdrawn pretty much immediately after the interview. How long is it sustainable for the others.
posted by chris24 at 3:20 PM on November 10 [5 favorites]


Unless they endorse his opponent or a write-in campaign by another Republican they are still tacitly supporting him.
posted by Justinian at 3:24 PM on November 10 [11 favorites]


Somebody needs to ask Roy Moore if he is positioning himself to unseat Trump in the next Republican presidential primary.
posted by srboisvert at 3:24 PM on November 10 [22 favorites]


There is no way for them to both win that race and repudiate Moore. If they repudiate Moore it won't get his name off the ballot as the Republican candidate, the best they could do is try and promote a Republican write in candidate, and all that'd do is split the vote and hand it to the Democrat.

*

Unless they endorse his opponent or a write-in campaign by another Republican they are still tacitly supporting him.


I don't disagree with you -- I know we are all thinking about the #nevertrumpers who managed to get away with un-endorsing Trump without endorsing anyone else. But I think there's a big difference in this race which increases the likelihood of a write-in campaign gaining some steam: nobody thought Trump would win.

Paul Ryan assumed he could just vaguely disavow him and in the aftermath he could tell Respectables that he couldn't support a sexual predator and Deplorables that he never supported anyone but their nominee. And now, oops, he's stuck between a useless president who hates him and a rabid base that won't take no for an answer, and is sort of fucked. If he could have it over again, you've got to think Ryan would either have endorsed someone else -- face-saving McMullin, former GOP Johnson -- or full-on stood by his man.

Sure the parallels aren't 100%, but I do feel like the fact that Moore goes into this scandal as the favourite to win the race, and become a millstone around the neck of every congressperson and senator in 2018 and beyond, is going to lead GOPers to different actions than when they were sure Trump was going to lose and never be a problem for them again.

But would they really sacrifice a Senate seat for that? If they think it'll save them the House next year, well...
posted by saturday_morning at 3:51 PM on November 10 [3 favorites]


Ugh that is a grotesque thought. As bad as Trump is he at least doesn't pretend to be religious nor does he run around with a gun in his pocket.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:53 PM on November 10


I can’t believe Roy Moore just blew up his own campaign with an assist from Sean Hannity. I mean, I know they’re both idiots, but FFS.
posted by leotrotsky at 3:54 PM on November 10 [25 favorites]


At this point I'm expecting that within two or three years there will be a contingent of GOP types who insist that their candidates be professed child molesters because it triggers the snowflakes.

That'll probably happen shortly before lawmen start wearing necklaces of human skulls. Given that there are police cars emblazoned with the Punisher skull emblem, that'll be sooner than most people think.
posted by acb at 4:11 PM on November 10 [5 favorites]


I'm just waiting for the day when someone gets accused of incest. I'm sure some of these dinks have the story of Lot's daughters cued up and ready to go.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:15 PM on November 10 [7 favorites]


Mr. I Trust Putin More Than Accusers has thoughts on a write in candidate.

@VaughnHillyard (NBC)
AL RNC Commtteman Paul Reynolds on write-in candidate: "If it is possible legally & somebody tries it & a DEM wins & it's pretty relatable to them, I think they need to be packed up & ready to go. Atlanta is not very far away--or they'll need to be north of the Mason-Dixon line."
posted by chris24 at 4:39 PM on November 10 [2 favorites]


Roy Moore Is Exactly What the Republican Party Is All About: Wake up and smell the white supremacist theocracy.
The rise of what used to be known as “the religious right” did not begin with the legalization of abortion. That’s a nice story that the various Bible-banging charlatans would like you to believe. No, the institutions that would nurture and produce the religious right were the white-only Christian academies and universities that sprang up in the South as part of the massive resistance to desegregation—the churchgoing end of that strategy. The religious right was not born out of opposition to Roe v. Wade. It was born out of opposition to Brown v. Board.

There was always something wretched in its founding that invariably asserted itself in our politics. Dishonesty and camouflage were its primary sacraments. As part of their bargain with these people, Republicans and conservatives agreed tacitly to overlook these things, and so they became accustomed to overlooking everything until, today, alleged pedophilia of the most grotesque sort is the latest thing to be overlooked in the cause of tax-cuts and the restriction of women's reproductive rights.

Without fastening itself to the enthusiastic remnants of American apartheid, modern conservatism and the modern Republican party never would have become the juggernaut they became, and the religious right was one of the more enthusiastic of those remnants. Small wonder, then, that so many Good Christian Men are either lining up behind Roy Moore, or if-then’ing themselves into incoherence trying not to talk about him. He has all the right positions on all the right issues that discomfort all the right people, and, given that, these people would vote for Satan himself.
posted by homunculus at 4:41 PM on November 10 [42 favorites]


Sean Hannity: If I get Roy Moore on my show to address these allegations, I can swing this election.

*monkey's paw curls a finger*
posted by delfin at 4:45 PM on November 10 [57 favorites]


"If it is possible legally & somebody tries it & a DEM wins & it's pretty relatable to them, I think they need to be packed up & ready to go. Atlanta is not very far away--or they'll need to be north of the Mason-Dixon line."

What the fuck does that even mean?
posted by elsietheeel at 4:53 PM on November 10 [4 favorites]


What the fuck does that even mean?

Threat of extralegal violence. Because Rs have embraced pure fascism.
posted by chris24 at 4:54 PM on November 10 [36 favorites]


What the fuck does that even mean?

If anyone coordinates a write in campaign and the Dem wins, and we can tell who did it they're gonna have to leave the State because they will get hurt or worse.
posted by Jalliah at 4:57 PM on November 10 [12 favorites]


Ugh. I hoped I was misreading it, but no, they really are that fucking despicable. Every time I think they've hit rock bottom they manage to do something worse.

The motto of the GOP is "Hold my beer!"
posted by elsietheeel at 5:00 PM on November 10 [6 favorites]


What the fuck does that even mean?
That's a direct threat of violence, from a current RNC Committeeman.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:00 PM on November 10 [32 favorites]


And I guess they've already conceded Atlanta to the Union since they suggest the interloper can hide out there among his countrymen.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:04 PM on November 10 [4 favorites]


I just caught Republican strategist Steve Schmidt on MSNBC with Chris Hayes, and Schmidt made a very strong statement condemning Moore.
posted by puddledork at 5:11 PM on November 10 [6 favorites]


Schmidt called on McCain, Flake, et al to endorse Doug Jones.

And really, the Republicans don't even need to go that "far." Just stand up and tell voters not to vote for Moore, if you have a tiny shred of decency.

(Yeah, I know, faulty premise.)
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:14 PM on November 10 [10 favorites]


Seriously, it was a little tingly listening to Good Ol' Family Values Roy crush his own cock on live radio while Hannity desperately tried to tape it back together.

But people have been saying Surely THIS Is Too Much Even For Alabama for decades and it never, ever, ever is. There will be more chapters in this story and we don't have the ending yet.
posted by delfin at 5:30 PM on November 10 [7 favorites]


So far, I've only noticed non-Alabama-based Republicans disavowing Moore. Have any AL Republicans disavowed yet?
posted by mhum at 5:36 PM on November 10 [4 favorites]


You can tell which top Republicans are evil rather than stupid: the ones that listened to that interview and correctly understood Moore was saying "there's a lot of other girls, and some of them may have photos". The article itself wasn't enough, but the interview, hoo boy, they bailed.
posted by tavella at 5:43 PM on November 10 [9 favorites]


If by tomorrow Roy Moore is confessing that he has been eating barbecued children for years and some Republicans say "In all fairness Cronus ate babies too and also the children were smoked for 10 hours over wood and were reportedly pretty delicious" I'll just shrug and think "2017 still on the linear crazy trajectory" and wonder when it goes exponential.
posted by srboisvert at 6:06 PM on November 10 [27 favorites]


If by tomorrow Roy Moore is confessing that he has been eating barbecued children for years

I would watch this Ti West movie, but halloween was last month.
posted by valkane at 6:13 PM on November 10


Conservative writer and sexual abuse survivor Nancy French in the Washington Post:
The evil of sexual predators is that they attack the weak, make them weaker, then discredit them because of their weakness. These arrogant monsters go on to bigger and better things, leaving a collection of wounded people in their wake. But these victims, one by one, are coming forward anyway — well aware that they’ll be mocked and disbelieved, well aware that some will scrutinize their lives more harshly than their predators’.
posted by clawsoon at 6:15 PM on November 10 [39 favorites]


So Hannity just made the interesting decision to run his ridiculously incriminating radio interview with Moore on his TV show. He appears increasingly befuddled as this obvious PR masterstroke has led all his panelists to agree that Moore is an egregiously bad liar and should drop out immediately.
posted by Rhaomi at 6:28 PM on November 10 [25 favorites]


I know we are all thinking about the #nevertrumpers who managed to get away with un-endorsing Trump without endorsing anyone else.

Everyone who is still a never Trumper that I follow loudly endorsed and voted for either Hillary or Lindsay Graham.
posted by Talez at 6:33 PM on November 10 [1 favorite]


Here's the full Steve Schmidt diatribe (VidMe via Raw Story) if you're in need of one small refreshing moment of sanity from a Republican.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:46 PM on November 10


At some point Schmidt and Nicole Wallace and the others need to make the decision to leave the Republican Party. I understand their arguments for staying. But the Republican civil war is over and their side lost. I wouldn't think highly of a person in like 1942 being all "I don't want to leave the NSDAP because then all that would be in the NSDAP are Nazis."
posted by Justinian at 6:51 PM on November 10 [10 favorites]


Noise about changing the timing of the election, which is apparently just a thing they can do somehow, is getting louder. From the Times:
State law gives the governor broad authority to set the date of special elections, and Ms. Ivey, who is a Republican, already rescheduled the Senate election once, after inheriting the governor’s office in April when her predecessor, Robert Bentley, resigned in a sex and corruption scandal. Ms. Ivey’s advisers have not ruled out exercising that power again, according to Republicans in touch with her camp, but she has signaled that she would like reassurances of support from the White House before taking such an aggressive step.
Hannity is saying they should postpone the election now. This is madness.
posted by zachlipton at 6:52 PM on November 10 [16 favorites]


mhum: "So far, I've only noticed non-Alabama-based Republicans disavowing Moore. Have any AL Republicans disavowed yet?"

Well, the other senator, Shelby, gave an, "if true, he should drop out" statement yesterday. The state party has been mostly hiding. The county parties have been mostly full-throated support.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:54 PM on November 10 [2 favorites]


> Hannity is saying they should postpone the election now.

Remember the howling during the Gore recounts about the sanctity of the election process and how trying to count all the votes in Florida amounted to changing the rules after the fact?

Ha. Ha ha.
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:54 PM on November 10 [31 favorites]


Remember how we weren't allowed to postpone the election until some time had passed for people to process the Comey letter? Them's the breaks.
posted by lalex at 6:56 PM on November 10 [9 favorites]


9/11/01 was primary-election day in New York City. They didn't postpone the vote.
posted by adamg at 7:03 PM on November 10 [8 favorites]


Hannity is saying they should postpone the election now. This is madness.

No, this is an admission of guilt while they figure out how to shoe-horn Luther Upsidedown, I mean Strange, in as the candidate. All the while, Doug Jones remains a righteous and god-fearing white man who did not diddle kids or get to where he was by a corrupt governor being shoveled out the door. If you're black or a woman looking for a reason to vote for this god-fearing white man, as a prosecutor, he went biblical on the Klansmen who murdered little black girls, and put them away for good, and he's running on that.

posted by Slap*Happy at 7:05 PM on November 10 [43 favorites]


If the AL GOP tries (and gets away with) postponement, Senate Dems should do everything in their (possibly limited?) power to refuse to certify the results of this tainted election.

It's like gerrymandering in time rather than in space.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:10 PM on November 10 [17 favorites]


You basically have to seat them, unless you can show clear evidence of corruption. And I know what everyone's outraged comment will be, but I mean corruption like literally fixing the result, or massive bribing of voters or something. Merely skeevy is probably not going to be enough.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:13 PM on November 10


The reasoning being, their candidate will probably lose? I don’t see how postponing even helps much; there’s no way Roy Moore goes quietly.

And how happy will the deplorables be when they have Luther Strange forced on them after giving him the boot in the primary? It’s going to kill turnout for them.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:15 PM on November 10 [3 favorites]


The date of special elections is set in Alabama by the governor. I see no provision by which the date may be changed once proclaimed and writs of election received by the county judges or representatives.
posted by Justinian at 7:15 PM on November 10 [3 favorites]


9/11/01 was primary-election day in New York City. They didn't postpone the vote.

Yes they did.
posted by melissasaurus at 7:16 PM on November 10 [2 favorites]


I suppose the governor could simply issue new writs of election. My assumption is this would be challenged in court as some kind of equal protection violation. I'm no lawyer so I don't know what the best argument would be but surely "date shopping" can't be legal.
posted by Justinian at 7:19 PM on November 10 [2 favorites]


Let me help frame the debate - In Alabama, The Democratic candidate is running on a Law and Order platform with a candidate with a proven record of bringing justice to those who hurt innocent kids. If you vote against him, you are voting for criminal pedo-perverts working for Wall Street that want to raise your taxes.

Put that on them postcards and mail it!

No, SERIOUSLY, the left needs to go axe-maniac on the opposition from time to time, and the time is NOW.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:22 PM on November 10 [18 favorites]


Encouraging a write-in campaign for Strange is probably the best of the bad options available for them. They’ll probably win the seat back in six years regardless; it’s still Alabama.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:22 PM on November 10 [3 favorites]


At some point Schmidt and Nicole Wallace and the others need to make the decision to leave the Republican Party. I understand their arguments for staying. But the Republican civil war is over and their side lost. I wouldn't think highly of a person in like 1942 being all "I don't want to leave the NSDAP because then all that would be in the NSDAP are Nazis."

Yeah, they have to be grasping by now that the word "Republican" is so irrevocably debased that they can't keep calling themselves that and realizing that the relatively non-crazy faction is simply not going to magically eject the deplorables (which is what you get for knowingly inviting a vampire into your house, but nevermind) from "their" party. But even for smart, powerful people, that kind of identity crisis is a pretty freaky thing.

At some point they'll need to create a Conservative Party or something, because there are only so many gigs at MSNBC and the like, and pretty soon, the non-loony mainstream Republican strategists and operatives still actively working in politics are just flat-out not going to be employable in the GOP without sucking off Trump and Bannon. So soon enough everybody's gonna have to fish or cut bait.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:24 PM on November 10 [3 favorites]


I'm no lawyer so I don't know what the best argument would be but surely "date shopping" can't be legal.

*Everything's* legal when you're a Republican.
posted by gerryblog at 7:25 PM on November 10 [7 favorites]


But I can charitably get why they're all sort of paralyzed because god knows I sit slack-jawed and staring into space at how fucking exponentially more terrible things have become in the GOP, and I never even LIKED the GOP a little bit since like 1974, so it must be pretty damn shocking for people that are/were fond of it.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:27 PM on November 10 [4 favorites]


leotrotsky: " They’ll probably win the seat back in six years regardless;"

The seat will be up for re-election in 2020. When you fill specials, the original timeline for the term of the seat still holds - Sessions was re-elected to the seat in 2014.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:28 PM on November 10 [10 favorites]


I mean... it's weird to be on Roy Moore's side in this hypothetical, but wouldn't he have a decent legal case that he is entitled to be the Republican nominee since they, you know, nominated him?

The executive cannot be allowed to cancel elections because they don't like the candidates duly put forward. That's fucking totalitarian.
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:29 PM on November 10 [9 favorites]


*Everything's* legal when you're a Republican.

Only half true: when you're a Republican, you get to decide what's legal and who is a criminal.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:30 PM on November 10 [3 favorites]


I wonder what kind of lawyer supreme moon lawyer Roy Moore would hire for himself? Oh:
Roy Moore’s family lawyer keeps calling @donlemon “don lemon easy squeezy peasy” and Don is not happy
“My mother didn’t name me Don Lemon easy squeezey, it’s just Don Lemon”
The lawyer, Trenton Garmon, says the 14-year-old who accused Moore could be lying about her age.
“There is an investigative opportunity out there to find out whether she was 17 or 14.”
posted by zachlipton at 7:31 PM on November 10 [8 favorites]


I saw that. It was so uncomfortable I had to mute it. I can't watch cringe comedy, and this was like... cringe tragedy? Cringe reality?
posted by Justinian at 7:32 PM on November 10 [6 favorites]


9/11/01 was primary-election day in New York City. They didn't postpone the vote.

Yes they did.


You're right! I was thinking of Giuliani's attempt to postpone his departure from City Hall.
posted by adamg at 7:38 PM on November 10 [1 favorite]


Roy Moore’s family lawyer keeps calling @donlemon “don lemon easy squeezy peasy” and Don is not happy

WTF?
posted by homunculus at 8:10 PM on November 10 [3 favorites]


Check out this statement from the attorney for Moore victim Gloria Deason.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:15 PM on November 10 [3 favorites]


Ugh... I just listened to that whole Hannity interview. He calls the two girls he’s willing to admit knowing (but not dating) “good girl[s]”. Like, as he was explaining how he knew each of them (friends with their parents) and in the middle of each explanation, he’s just like “She was a good girl.” He makes me feel slimy just listening to him. (Also, he’s an awful liar.)
posted by Weeping_angel at 8:26 PM on November 10 [6 favorites]


Oh sure, if she was 17 and he was 30-whatever that's be totally fine, right? Nothing to see here. Why is the next question from an interviewer seemingly never "Oh, so if she was seventeen that makes it OK?"
posted by axiom at 8:33 PM on November 10 [1 favorite]


Just finished up the official unofficial Doug Jones subreddit! Reddit-savvy mods welcome, just MeMail me.
posted by Rhaomi at 8:58 PM on November 10 [8 favorites]


Ha, I went to post it on the BLueMidterm2018 subreddit, but someone already had beaten me to it!
posted by Chrysostom at 9:02 PM on November 10 [2 favorites]


spoiler alert: IT WAS ME!
posted by Rhaomi at 9:04 PM on November 10 [9 favorites]


Whelp it’s 9:15 pm on November 10 on the West Coast and why hasn’t Roy Moore bailed by now? Dude. It’s over. You’re a despicable person and everyone agrees. Step off.
posted by notyou at 9:18 PM on November 10 [2 favorites]


You’re a despicable person and everyone agrees. Step off.

It might seem that way but check out the Trump side of social media. Over there this is an obvious hit job by the DNC and Clinton.
posted by runcibleshaw at 9:22 PM on November 10 [4 favorites]


It's amazing the way they can't get beyond her. I mean - you know she doesn't own the Washington Post, right?
posted by Chrysostom at 9:37 PM on November 10 [2 favorites]


Essentially, this tunnel-vision gives anybody who's Democrat/Liberal/Leftist the ability to get a lot done. This week's elections being a good example.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:46 PM on November 10 [1 favorite]


Washingtonian, Elaina Plott, Roy Moore Didn’t Deny Kissing Teenagers as 30-Year-Old in Call With Lawmaker
As a political firestorm raged over allegations that he had been romantically involved with teens, Alabama GOP Senate candidate Roy Moore appeared on Sean Hannity’s radio show Friday. Asked whether he had dated 17- or 18-year-old girls while he was in his 30s, Moore said he didn’t remember. “If I did, I’m not going to dispute these things, but I don’t remember anything like that,” he added.

The statement likely didn’t do his embattled candidacy any favors—even though Moore did deny having been involved with a 14-year-old. And it turns out he couldn’t deny relations with underage women in a phone call with a US senator after the show.

According to three sources briefed on the call, Moore could not deny “kissing” or “dating” teenagers while in his thirties. The Republican senator encouraged Moore to drop out of the race, the sources said. A spokesman for Moore declined to comment on an account of the phone call.
posted by zachlipton at 9:56 PM on November 10 [8 favorites]


>> I have to believe that gravity kicks in here, and he drops out in the next 24 hours. He has to, come on.

>> I can’t believe Roy Moore just blew up his own campaign with an assist from Sean Hannity. I mean, I know they’re both idiots, but FFS.


I promised myself on November 9th of last year that I would never again allow myself to be surprised by anything that happens in American politics. Moore loses or drops out? I'll believe it when I see it. It can always get worse. It doesn't have to, but it can.
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 10:09 PM on November 10 [7 favorites]


Perhaps Republican men are fiercely protective of Moore because if one of them goes down for predatory misogyny and/or racism, they all do.
posted by SakuraK at 10:38 PM on November 10 [11 favorites]


Perhaps Republican men are fiercely protective of Moore because if one of them goes down for predatory misogyny and/or racism, they all do.

Maybe not literally every Republican, but it would be anomalous if sexual predators whose very MO is exploiting power imbalances didn't seek power and, upon encountering others of their kind, tacitly have each other's back. (And the last part might not be out of any sort of solidarity or anything more than game theory: if you're a concealed predator in a ruling class full of other concealed predators, you know where you'd start digging if you wanted to hole a rival's career below the waterline, but you also know that they know the same about you; breaking solidarity is like getting the nukes out in war.)
posted by acb at 3:50 AM on November 11 [7 favorites]


Check out this statement from the attorney for Moore victim Gloria Deason.

Wow, that statement is fire.
posted by chris24 at 4:50 AM on November 11 [11 favorites]


@Josh_Moon (APR)
Also, Moore told Hannity, in an oddly specific denial, that he didn't buy alcohol for Deason bc the county was dry. It was not. According to info I have, Etowah Co legalized alcohol sales in 72. Dates were in 79. #alpolitics #ALSEN
posted by chris24 at 5:23 AM on November 11 [8 favorites]


Over there this is an obvious hit job by the DNC and Clinton.

Obvious hit job by ...Sean Hannity and ...his entire panel at Fox News ...and Roy Moore himself!

This goes all the way to the top!
posted by leotrotsky at 5:24 AM on November 11 [4 favorites]


Wow, that statement is fire.

That statement is readable here.
posted by klarck at 5:32 AM on November 11 [13 favorites]




Alabamanana republic?
posted by saturday_morning at 5:40 AM on November 11 [2 favorites]


If you have to postpone an election because your electorate isn’t sufficiently opposed to pedophilia and sexual assault...
posted by Barack Spinoza at 5:43 AM on November 11 [25 favorites]


@kylegriffin1: Alabama state law gives the governor broad authority to set the date of special elections, NYT reports Gov. Kay Ivey may order a new date for the election—sometime early next year—giving Republicans time to ease Roy Moore from the race.

If that's true, if there's not a campaign to start calling the Governor's Office objecting to this idea there should be RIGHT NOW.

When you think you might lose, you don't get to change the rules of the game.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:44 AM on November 11 [14 favorites]


As Justinian said above:

The date of special elections is set in Alabama by the governor. I see no provision by which the date may be changed once proclaimed and writs of election received by the county judges or representatives.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:46 AM on November 11 [2 favorites]


> giving Republicans time to ease Roy Moore from the race.

Oh no Brer Governer, please don't throw Doug Jones into that briar patch. I'd hate to see the process for disposing Moore get long, drawn out and messy. There might be time for more Moore allegations come to light, reinforcing the association between Republican and pedofile. There may be new national focus on the background of Strange and Bentley's quid pro quo. What if it escalates the proxy battle between Bannon and McConnell and widens the GOP rift even more? Please Brer Governer, bring this to a swift, quiet end.
posted by klarck at 5:52 AM on November 11 [6 favorites]


@kylegriffin1: Alabama state law gives the governor broad authority to set the date of special elections, NYT reports Gov. Kay Ivey may order a new date for the election—sometime early next year—giving Republicans time to ease Roy Moore from the race.

Probably not to ease in another candidate but just to give the "scandal" a bit more time to fade out of the Leonard Shelby-like minds of the public.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:53 AM on November 11 [1 favorite]


Barack Spinoza : If you have to postpone an election because your electorate isn’t sufficiently opposed to pedophilia and sexual assault...

It sounds like if the governor pursued this, it would be precisely because he's worried that pedophilia might be a career-sinker (to the point that the next Senator could be, heaven forbid, the Democrat). So that's mildly heartening.

duffell's idea about Facebook "Trump for Strange" ads makes me wonder if Donald himself could be brought on board. It should be so easy for a reporter to appeal to his vanity: "Mr. President, were you right all along about Luther Strange being the best choice for Alabama?" Plus I suspect he's incapable of understanding the spoiler effect (If someone tried explaining it he'd just think "How can voting for Strange help anyone but Strange?").

However, "Do you still endorse Strange?" might backfire if DJT were unexpectedly honest; replying "Oh, I never liked Strange, they just told me to endorse him" would lose zero of his says-what-he-means, leads-like-a-boss cred among the base. ("Been there!" they'd think.)
posted by InTheYear2017 at 6:04 AM on November 11 [2 favorites]


The odds are that if they tried to change the dates of the election this close to it, they would get smacked down hard in federal court. Jones would have zero problem showing that this is motivated by nothing but fear of losing the election. He also would have a very easy time showing that this is being done to favor one party and in particular to disadvantage one candidate. They could make an argument if there was some sort of catastrophe or if there was mutual agreement by all candidates. If they try to reschedule the election, it’s probably going to violate multiple federal voting laws.
posted by azpenguin at 6:07 AM on November 11 [12 favorites]


Jones would have zero problem showing that this is motivated by nothing but fear of losing the election. He also would have a very easy time showing that this is being done to favor one party and in particular to disadvantage one candidate.

All true, but it'll be much better if Moore is the one raging against this and fighting it. All the better to confuse the tribalist Republican-vs-Democrat narrative.
posted by duffell at 6:11 AM on November 11 [3 favorites]


The date of special elections is set in Alabama by the governor. I see no provision by which the date may be changed once proclaimed and writs of election received by the county judges or representatives.

If it were legal it would be an excellent way to deplete the coffers of your opponent. Just run a minimal campaign and let them spend all their money and then move the goalposts 6 months away and spend away while they have nothing.
posted by srboisvert at 6:16 AM on November 11 [3 favorites]


Jones would have zero problem showing that this is motivated by nothing but fear of losing the election. He also would have a very easy time showing that this is being done to favor one party and in particular to disadvantage one candidate.

Oh yes, people who are totally willing to excuse a child molester are totally going to flip on this sort of favoritism.
posted by Talez at 6:24 AM on November 11 [1 favorite]


Unfortunately, there really are many people who will not see Moore's actions as either pedophilia or sexual assault. I don't share their views, but I know and have known enough of them - hell, am related to enough of them, to know it is a genuine cultural disconnect.

I was raised in the midst of people that would have been pleased and proud of their daughters who attracted a man such as Moore. Many would have thought fourteen was a little too young, but not all. Most would note approvingly that when she asked him to take her home, he did. In their minds, in their culture, he proved himself a good man by not pushing for more. In the other cases, he asked permission of the mothers, so all was respectable.

There really are people who genuinely believe that God makes healthy adult men to be attracted to teen girls. They really do believe their daughters will be happier attaching early to a successful man, marrying him and starting a family before they can be tempted by less pure ideas.

I am far from objective here - the same culture I describe also enabled a great deal of abuse in my early life, so I find it very easy to label the whole gross mess evil and disgusting. But I know a lot of people who truly believe that they are good and following their faith, and really won't see anything disturbing in a man in his mid thirties 'courting' teen girls. And Moore isn't really even trying to deny that.
posted by Vigilant at 6:28 AM on November 11 [25 favorites]


It’s funny watching the same people who lecture us to no end about the perils of cultural relativism in ethics defending their own pedophiliac cultural norms as beyond reproach.

Did I say “funny”? I meant “infuriating.”
posted by Barack Spinoza at 6:34 AM on November 11 [13 favorites]


(not directed at you, Vigilant)
posted by Barack Spinoza at 6:34 AM on November 11 [3 favorites]


Oh yes, people who are totally willing to excuse a child molester are totally going to flip on this sort of favoritism.

the electorate might not care, but the question is whether people are willing to risk prosecution to try and fix the election. i'm not even sure what potential charges or penalties might be, though, because this is such an outrageous situation that i... don't think it's come up before in the US?

which continues to be the major theme of 2017, so
posted by halation at 6:35 AM on November 11 [4 favorites]


Unfortunately, there really are many people who will not see Moore's actions as either pedophilia or sexual assault.

But I suspect not >50%. There's plenty of folks who believe retrograde stuff, but I'm not sure that's enough to keep the seat, particularly with the victims making statements, the RNC and Republican senators cutting ties, and Fox News! saying he should drop out.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:35 AM on November 11 [3 favorites]


Unfortunately, there really are many people who will not see Moore's actions as either pedophilia or sexual assault.

True, but we don't need all or even most. We need 6%*. The voters you're talking about were never going to vote D anyway. We need motivated Ds to turn out big, depressed/turned off Rs to stay home, and a few moral Rs to switch and it might just work for Jones.

* Jones' poll deficit.
posted by chris24 at 6:36 AM on November 11 [7 favorites]


We're good, Barack Spinoza. It enrages me, too.

Leotrotsky and chris24, agreed. And as I live close to Alabama, and know and work with a lot of people who do live there, I am doing what I can to boost progressive turnout there. Also, as I can, sharing my life experience with the people I might be able to reach as a person raised in that culture who they know and care for.

I don't want this normalized for yet another generation.
posted by Vigilant at 6:46 AM on November 11 [3 favorites]


They really do believe their daughters will be happier attaching early to a successful man, marrying him and starting a family before they can be tempted by less pure ideas.

Child Marriage in America: Current Laws Are Failing to Protect Vulnerable Children and Teens [Tahirih Justice Center, a U.S. based non-profit organised serving individuals fleeing violence.]
posted by Buntix at 6:50 AM on November 11 [6 favorites]


I don't expect McConnell reads metafilter, but the smart thing at this point might be to gather the votes in a public-enough way so that GOP elites can semi-credibly say "Go ahead and vote for Moore just to keep Jones out, and then we'll immediately expel him and you'll have a new election."
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:54 AM on November 11 [1 favorite]


That will never happen. First, because IOKIYAR. Second, because republicans make a bunch of mouth noises about being appalled and standards and whatnot, and then they hug it out and vote in lockstep anyway.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 6:58 AM on November 11 [7 favorites]


This column by John Archibald, Alabama Media Group columnist (Birmingham News, Huntsville Times & Mobile Press Register) is brutal (and the referenced CT article is good as well).

Roy Moore defense: Unbuckling the Bible Belt
Because neither one of those guys had the decency to question whether reports that Senate candidate Roy Moore hit on underage girls when he was in his 30s were true. That didn't seem to matter. Neither one had the propriety to want to know more, or rebuke it - even in the safe, milquetoast manner of so many others - with the caveat if it is true.

Zeigler invoked God when he said there's nothing wrong with hitting on the youngsters. It was fine when old man Joseph hooked up with teenaged Mary, he told a reporter. The result was ... Jesus!

Jesus.

That blew the top off Christianity Today writer Ed Stetzer, who stripped Zeigler bare.

"Bringing Joseph and Mary into a modern-day molestation accusation, where a 32-year-old prosecutor is accused of molesting a 14-year-old girl, is simultaneously ridiculous and blasphemous," Stetzer wrote.

"So, let's be clear. No. Normal. Evangelical. Believes. This. About. The. Bible," he went on. "As Christians, this should provoke anger."

But in Alabama it provoked anger at the press that reported it, and at the women themselves.
posted by chris24 at 7:09 AM on November 11 [40 favorites]


so that GOP elites can semi-credibly say "Go ahead and vote for Moore just to keep Jones out, and then we'll immediately expel him and you'll have a new election."

The only non-Civil War-related Senate expulsion was 220 years ago.
posted by rhizome at 7:18 AM on November 11 [7 favorites]


Expect Alabama governor Kay Ivey to be "party first" in her actions. If she decides delaying the election will result in a GOP win, then that's what she will do -- unless she thinks that doing it would hurt the party in the long run.

I posted this to the blue back in April:
I've had occasion to hear Ivey speak to Republican Women's groups a couple of times (my presence there being work-related, as I am in fact neither Republican nor a woman). She came off as "Republican with a capital R -- party above all else", but I guess that should have been expected.
Also from that post:
Here is a link to part one of an interview with her that kind of alternates between down-home charming and cringe-worthy. At one point in the interview it comes up that she was down-the-road neighbors and schoolmates with Jeff Sessions. See if you can sit through both parts, I dare you.
In another post from April, I said this about Roy Moore:
I don't have words to express how bad I think it will be if he actually gets elected, other than to say that if he does, I expect to see levels of bible-thumping, demagoguery, racism, and chauvinism that will make the worst of the past look tame in comparison.
Still my opinion, only now I'd add pedophilia to that list.
posted by TwoToneRow at 7:46 AM on November 11 [5 favorites]


Yesterday morning, Twitter's Alexandra Erin raised a crucial, plausible argument to bear in mind: "Here is the thing about Roy Moore going into December: I am dead certain more Democrat-aligned voters stayed home because of Access Hollywood than Republican ones" (start of a thread)

This situation calls for a careful balance of hope and cynicism. One "good" thing here is that Moore has been the favorite, so essentially zero Alabamians (apart from the "he's being persecuted!" set) are under the impression that he's somehow automatically toast now.

(But this stuff also makes me think about my pet theory that sufficiently awful candidates tend to demoralize the voting public so much that turnout gets depressed even among opponents, instead of energized. Like, the act of voting against Moore in December means, yeah, you'll have to confront the awful fact that he's a candidate to begin with. I think that was a paradoxical factor in Trump's favor... and some have said fascism works partly by stoking the dissenting public's sense of weary dissociation/disbelief. The assholes aren't going to give you heart — so take heart anyway.)
posted by InTheYear2017 at 7:56 AM on November 11 [9 favorites]


Killer Twitter thread by Sarah Posner and why white evangelical culture is strangely tolerant of accusations of sexual molestation of underage girls, including discussion of Moore, the Duggars, and Trump too.
posted by jonp72 at 8:29 AM on November 11 [6 favorites]


Did the voting public seem listless and demoralized last Tuesday?
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:34 AM on November 11 [7 favorites]


Just now from Corker.

@SenBobCorker
Look, I'm sorry, but even before these reports surfaced, Roy Moore's nomination was a bridge too far.
posted by chris24 at 8:48 AM on November 11 [37 favorites]


Jones would have zero problem showing that this is motivated by nothing but fear of losing the election. He also would have a very easy time showing that this is being done to favor one party and in particular to disadvantage one candidate.

Oh yes, people who are totally willing to excuse a child molester are totally going to flip on this sort of favoritism


The people willing to excuse him might not care, but a federal judge sure as hell might.
posted by azpenguin at 9:01 AM on November 11 [4 favorites]


A decent sentiment from Corker, but could do without the "I'm sorry, but". Better phrasing would be "Heck, even before the reports…" The existing phrasing is often used dismissively, the "I don't mean to be rude (but actually I mean to be rude)" kind of sorry.

On the other hand, he might just be clumsily apologizing for breaking GOP rank on this. I dunno.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 9:06 AM on November 11


he might just be clumsily apologizing for breaking GOP rank on this.

That’s the read I get on it. Like, “sorry other GOP-sters, but you knew this was a fucking problem before.”
posted by corb at 9:19 AM on November 11 [5 favorites]


Has the White House commented on Roy Moore yet?
posted by notyou at 9:44 AM on November 11


"I don't mean to be rude (but actually I mean to be rude)" kind of sorry.

This is the exasperated read I get and I like it!
posted by lalex at 9:52 AM on November 11 [1 favorite]


Yeah. I definitely read it as "Fellow Republicans, you are being ridiculous and you know it and you need to stop."
posted by saturday_morning at 9:53 AM on November 11 [4 favorites]


The existing phrasing is often used dismissively, the "I don't mean to be rude (but actually I mean to be rude)" kind of sorry.

The #sorrynotsorry reading is how I take, but I don't see that as dismissive of his own sentiments, I see it as dismissive of those who are only now boarding the NoMoore train - "I'm sorry you guys had your heads so far up your asses you're only now realizing what was obvious to me much sooner".

Or did you mean 'better phrasing' as in 'better at not pissing off the rest of the GOP who are still toeing the line'? 'Cause fuck them.
posted by solotoro at 9:54 AM on November 11 [2 favorites]


I'm worried that Corker's tweet is another step towards the GOP postponing the election.
posted by mcduff at 10:00 AM on November 11


Has the White House commented on Roy Moore yet?

Yes.
posted by zakur at 10:11 AM on November 11 [1 favorite]


Oh right, Trump is said to have said that Roy Moore should step down if the allegations were true.
posted by notyou at 10:11 AM on November 11 [1 favorite]


I thought Trump's opinion was made clear over a year ago: “When you're a star they let you do it,”
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:19 AM on November 11 [12 favorites]


For whatever reason, Trump doesn't seem to like Moore and campaigned for Strange in the primary.
posted by octothorpe at 10:21 AM on November 11 [1 favorite]


For whatever reason, Trump doesn't seem to like Moore and campaigned for Strange in the primary.

Party orders, but his heart wasn't really in it.
posted by zakur at 10:26 AM on November 11 [1 favorite]


Per that Time article, it's not even "should do the right thing and step aside", it's "will do the right thing and step aside".

It's a bare prediction floating daintily on a hypothetical, a vague commentary from afar on what might be the case if something is found to be true, off in the future, you know, unmoored (if you will) from any tangible connection to what might be considered a Presidential moral disapproval of any actions that may or may not have been taken
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:28 AM on November 11 [1 favorite]


I'm worried that Corker's tweet is another step towards the GOP postponing the election.

The governor just made a statement:

@alanblinder (NYT)
From a spokesman for Alabama's governor: "Governor Ivey is not considering and has no plans to move the special election for U.S. Senate."
posted by chris24 at 10:30 AM on November 11 [26 favorites]


I do think Trump could start whistling a very different tune if someone told him it might just be possible to have Jeff Sessions back in the Senate and a new AG who hasn't recused himself from the Russia investigation. Crazy? Yes, but 2017.
posted by zachlipton at 10:33 AM on November 11 [4 favorites]


I should be clearer about my misguided interpretation of Corker. I think it saw it as a weird one-upping along the lines of "Look, I'm sorry, but sex abuse is nothing compared to [everything else wrong with Roy Moore]".

But yeah, that doesn't really make sense, because Corker isn't some I-care-correctly-whereas-you-care-incorrectly type. He's aiming his invective fully at fellow Republicans, generally. I withdraw my weird assumptions.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 10:35 AM on November 11 [2 favorites]


I do think Trump could start whistling a very different tune if someone told him it might just be possible to have Jeff Sessions back in the Senate and a new AG who hasn't recused himself from the Russia investigation. Crazy? Yes, but 2017.

Why do people think this is a possibility? Sessions resigned, there is an election, the ballots are printed and the party nominees are chosen. Under what mechanism would Sessions magically get his seat back? Seriously asking
posted by schadenfrau at 10:39 AM on November 11 [6 favorites]


I doubt that Sessions being re-absorbed into the senate is a legal possibility, but I can see Trump insisting it happen somehow.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 10:53 AM on November 11


Republican governor of Maryland.

@LarryHogan
Roy Moore’s defenders should ask themselves if they would be so quick to excuse him if the victim was their daughter or if the offender was a Democrat. He is unfit for office and should step aside. Americans are better than this.
posted by chris24 at 10:59 AM on November 11 [21 favorites]


Meanwhile, Maryland's lone Republican congressman, Andy Harris, has yet to unendorse Moore, though he did issue one of those candy-ass "if he's guilty" statements.
posted by duffell at 11:04 AM on November 11


Is there anyone ALGOP hasn't blamed but Moore? What about restaurants that allow kids to eat free? Have ALGOP blamed those restaurants for 30-something Moore dating fourteen year olds?
posted by Talez at 11:19 AM on November 11 [3 favorites]


"Governor Ivey is not considering and has no plans to move the special election for U.S. Senate."

Good. It’ll be a write-in campaign for Strange, then. I’m OK with that.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:19 AM on November 11


NY Times: For Alabama Women, Disgust, Fatigue and a Sense Moore Could Win Anyway
...in this upper-middle-class suburb of Birmingham, a place of establishment Republicans, moderate Democrats and true swing voters, women interviewed about Mr. Moore, for the most part, said the allegations came less as a shocking bolt from the blue than as just one more reason not to like a man they never much cared for in the first place...

Susie Barganier, 55, a worker at Redbox, the movie rental company, was waiting for her color treatment at a busy hair salon. “I’m not sure what to make of it,” she said of the allegations. It seemed, she said, that so many women were coming out with so many allegations these days. “But the fact that she was 14 and he was 32, I have a problem with. But I don’t like Roy Moore anyway.”

She also thought the allegations would not hurt Mr. Moore’s chances in December. “Probably not,” she said. “Not in Alabama.”
Don't miss the elementary school principal who dismisses the allegations because they're too old and they could hurt someone's reputation.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 11:29 AM on November 11 [8 favorites]


Yeah, as posted earlier I read the Alabama statues about special elections (they're pretty short) and the governor issuing new writs of election to the counties would have been pretty extraordinary. The statutes don't anticipate such an event and the lawsuits would have been quite something.

"This seems like it must be illegal" isn't a very good legal argument but... it just can't be legal to move around elections for the sole reason of helping your candidate win?
posted by Justinian at 11:30 AM on November 11 [4 favorites]


Don't miss the elementary school principal who dismisses the allegations because they're too old and they could hurt someone's reputation.

Someone should put a tail on that guy gal.
posted by rhizome at 11:33 AM on November 11 [2 favorites]


Alabama Code Title 17. Elections for anyone interested.
posted by Justinian at 11:34 AM on November 11


Opinion Savvy is a pretty terrible pollster, but they're the only pollster to poll the race before and after this scandal hit. They had Moore up 5% in late September and are now showing a tie. This might represent actual movement, but I'd like confirmation. Fox News's pollster is reasonably good, OK but not great (a B rating from 538). They were showing a tied race in mid October.

That's not much to go on. Hopefully, now that scandal has gotten national attention, and the polling we have so far looks surprisingly close, this race will get more attention from reliable pollsters.
posted by nangar at 11:38 AM on November 11 [1 favorite]


It's baffling how the same people who say they'd still vote for Moore even if they believed the accusations also keep asking why the allegations didn't come out earlier. They didn't come out earlier because of enabling dipshits like you! Gah!
posted by homunculus at 11:46 AM on November 11 [26 favorites]


@MarquardtA (CNN)
Fmr Dep. DA Theresa Jones, who worked alongside Roy Moore, tells CNN: “It was common knowledge that Roy dated high school girls, everyone we knew thought it was weird...We wondered why someone his age would hang out at high school football games and the mall..."
posted by chris24 at 12:05 PM on November 11 [57 favorites]


From a spokesman for Alabama's governor: "Governor Ivey is not considering and has no plans to move the special election for U.S. Senate."

Translation: our attorneys told us we better not try it.
posted by azpenguin at 12:34 PM on November 11 [9 favorites]


Ok Theresa Jones, if everyone knew why the fuck did no one say anything?
posted by medusa at 2:22 PM on November 11 [1 favorite]


Theresa Jones, if everyone knew why the fuck did no one say anything?

Because much of the power structure, especially back then, didn't see a problem with it. Evangelical men hunting for inexperienced and manipulatable young women is considered fine in some circles. Remember that it's still legal there for a 35 year old man to marry a 15 year old girl, as long as her parents sign off on it.
posted by Candleman at 2:32 PM on November 11 [11 favorites]


I appreciate Justinian fittingly providing statutory guidance in this thread.
posted by leotrotsky at 2:38 PM on November 11 [3 favorites]


from The Hill comments section:

O'Reilly
Dems: f*ck that guy
GOP: Fake! They're liars trying to get rich. If they're telling the truth, why didn't they tell HR?

Weinstein
Dems: f*ck that guy
GOP: f*ck that guy

Kevin Spacey
Dems: f*ck that guy
GOP: f*ck that guy

Trump
Dems: f*ck that guy
GOP: He didn't do it. They're liars. Besides, he only did it because that's how guys are. It's normal. He didn't even do it, he's all talk.

Anthony Weiner
Dems: f*ck that guy
GOP: f*ck that guy

Roger Ailes
Dems: f*ck that guy
GOP: This is a massive, coordinated smear campaign. Up next: New Pizzagate details emerge

Roy Moore
Dems: f*ck that guy
GOP: Actual assault victims who aren't lying are few and far between. Besides, if sexual abuse of a minor is consensual, it's fine. Like Mary and Joseph.

posted by leotrotsky at 2:52 PM on November 11 [73 favorites]


By the way, this isn't the first time I've posted about Moore on the blue. When this thread started, I originally planned to sit this one out, then got annoyed by folks who seem to think that everyone in Alabama is a Jethro Bodine clone and felt like I needed to rant a little -- that's all I have to say about that.
posted by TwoToneRow at 3:06 AM on November 10 [98 favorites ?] Favorite added! [!]


Thanks for hanging in there, this isn't the most friendly place, and thanks the most for your rant, opinion, and your information! happy to read it. please rant more.

Alabama is thoroughly the united states, the united states is thoroughly Alabamian. General Tubman was never able to reach Alabama, as far as I know, but USians nowadays don't have nearly the General's load to bear.

If anyone in the US hates Gross Old Pedophiles, support Alabamians and sign up for Doug Jones, because Doug Jones is pretty great.
posted by eustatic at 2:59 PM on November 11 [5 favorites]


If anyone wants to see a southern democrat rip into an opponent for a (criminal) character failing, i present the 2015 Louisiana gubernatorial debate.
posted by eustatic at 3:28 PM on November 11 [1 favorite]


Yeah, when the GOP media jumped all over Weinstein going, "See? Democrats do it too, you're just as bad as us!" I was like a) way to admit you're terrible and b) the difference is, all these lefty Hollywood groups immediately began expelling Weinstein and terminating his projects, even at great personal expense, effectively ending his career; Republicans elected Trump president. So I'm pretty sure one party IS better than the other, jerkfaces.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:30 PM on November 11 [53 favorites]


Republican senator from Louisiana.

@BillCassidy
Based on the allegations against Roy Moore, his response and what is known, I withdraw support.
posted by chris24 at 4:38 PM on November 11 [21 favorites]


I do think Trump could start whistling a very different tune if someone told him it might just be possible to have Jeff Sessions back in the Senate

This is not a thing that is possible.
posted by corb at 4:48 PM on November 11 [2 favorites]


all these lefty Hollywood groups immediately began expelling Weinstein and terminating his projects, even at great personal expense, effectively ending his career; Republicans elected Trump president. So I'm pretty sure one party IS better than the other, jerkfaces.

Seriously, between Hollywood and the GOP, the former is the only one responding to these crimes in a moral way. That should be pointed out anytime time republicans bring up their talking points about Hollywood.
posted by homunculus at 4:49 PM on November 11 [12 favorites]


Seriously, between Hollywood and the GOP, the former is the only one responding to these crimes in a moral way. That should be pointed out anytime time republicans bring up their talking points about Hollywood.

I don't think it'll do any good. For instance, claiming that the left is doing nothing to respond to the Hollywood allegations, even though this is demonstrably untrue. Rather unsurprisingly, people like him are completely silent on Moore and Trump, because LOL LIBRUL TEARS. Notably, this comes just a few days after he mocked gun control with, I kid you not, a picture of an AR-15 with a goddamn naked lady truck flap.

These people are deluded, stubborn, and 110% evil, and I honestly don't think we can reach those that have gone this far.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:03 PM on November 11 [10 favorites]


And just in case it needs reminding, Torgersen posted that after we knew the Sutherland Springs shooter was, like so many murderers, a violent misogynist who used his guns to intimidate women, up to and including his SO.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:29 PM on November 11 [7 favorites]


New poll from Gravis: 48 Moore - 46 Jones.
posted by chris24 at 6:11 PM on November 11 [9 favorites]


Asked: Do you believe The Washington Post did the right thing in publishing these accusations? Forty-two percent said yes and 38 percent said no and 19 percent were undecided.

Asked: Do you trust Roy Moore? Forty-three percent said no and 40 percent said yes with 17 percent undecided.

Asked: Do you believe these accusations about Roy Moore? Forty percent said they believe accusations and 43 percent said they do not.
That's an even split with 20%ish undecided. Not a bad place for the polls to be two days into a major scandal.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:28 PM on November 11 [7 favorites]


More interesting poll news.

@ForecasterEnten (538)
I can report (unless my sources have failed me) that tomorrow will showcase the first public poll to show Doug Jones with a lead in the AL-Senate race. This race is very real.
posted by chris24 at 7:31 PM on November 11 [25 favorites]


Advertisers distance themselves from Hannity after Moore coverage.

Tweet and call. "Do you, like Sean Hannity, support "consensual" pedophilia?"
posted by leotrotsky at 8:28 PM on November 11 [24 favorites]


Justinian: ""This seems like it must be illegal" isn't a very good legal argument but... it just can't be legal to move around elections for the sole reason of helping your candidate win?"

FWIW, some more analysis indicating that no, Ivey can't cancel or even move the election.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:16 PM on November 11 [4 favorites]


nangar: "Opinion Savvy is a pretty terrible pollster"

They did a good job on the AL primary polling, I believe.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:17 PM on November 11 [2 favorites]


"Do you, like Sean Hannity, support "consensual" pedophilia?"

I got up to Publishers Clearing House before Twitter stopped sending them because of "suspicion of automated activity."
posted by
Johnny Wallflower at 10:23 PM on November 11


So, just to keep track, in polling since the WP story broke:

Opinion Savvy: Moore +0.4
Change Research: Moore +4
Gravis: Moore +2

And it sounds like the JMC poll dropping mid-day tomorrow has at least a narrow lead for Jones.

It seems reasonable to state that, at minimum, the race is relatively tight.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:01 PM on November 11 [5 favorites]


Yeah, that's what they tell the pollsters, but who will they actually vote for?
posted by J.K. Seazer at 11:08 PM on November 11 [3 favorites]


I've seen some rumblings that there's another shoe to drop on Moore, based on him pulling up stakes and moving to Australia for a year around this time.
posted by rhizome at 12:00 AM on November 12 [9 favorites]


Yeah, that's what they tell the pollsters, but who will they actually vote for?
posted by J.K. Seazer at 11:08 PM on November 11


Ron Howard: Alabama votes for the pussy grabber.
posted by SakuraK at 12:02 AM on November 12 [2 favorites]


I'm kind of sceptical about Roy Moore's claim to have worked as a cowboy in Australia. You'd be amazed how few people do that sort of thing in Australia, and it's not clear to me how an American would get in touch with a potential employer. Did he provide any details?
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:11 AM on November 12 [21 favorites]


leotrotsky: On the other hand, there's the multiple-accusers case of William Jefferson Clinton… I really like to think he could never run today, if you could transport his 1992 self to the present or transplant current attitudes to the past. But still, blech.

I'm kind of resentful that my liberal upbringing framed his acts with Lewinsky entirely as a matter of mutual passion; I remember a bumper sticker with Bill's face reading "Make Love, Not War". It took years for me to seriously consider what the whole thing might have been like from her point of view. (Be honest and ask yourself: what are the odds that Bill initiated about as bluntly as Louis CK initiated, rather than after cautiously gauging Monica's sincere interest?)

To be fair, Republicans of the day never used the power-dynamic argument; everyone in the conversation seemed to agree that "adultery" and "lying about it" was the extent of the crimes, and the question was how bad those things are. And of course the GOP was being cynical and didn't even care about the aspects they claimed to. Still.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 3:34 AM on November 12 [30 favorites]


It took years for me to seriously consider what the whole thing might have been like from her point of view.

This this this this. I am kind of stunned not so much at the jokes everyone made, but at who made them. And that no one seemed aware of the power imbalance, or that Monica Lewinsky was unbelievably young. (I was, I think, 15 or 16 when everything hit, and she seemed super grown-up to me.)

Hum. I like to think we've moved beyond that, but I also bear in mind that Bill was/is charming and has a lawyer's talent with spin.
posted by kalimac at 5:55 AM on November 12 [17 favorites]




Monica Lewinsky was unbelievably young. (I was, I think, 15 or 16 when everything hit, and she seemed super grown-up to me

22 when she started working at the WH, which of course is still really gross for someone Clinton's age to be hitting on, and of course hitting on your subordinate is really gross and often at least civilly illegal.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:23 AM on November 12 [4 favorites]


I defended Bill when I was in 9th grade and he was getting impeached. The other guys just seemed so very bald-faced in their political, not moral, motivations. But now I think he should be tossed out of polite society like the sexual assaulter he clearly is or at least was. There should be a reckoning amongst Democrats with his sins as well.

But it's got nothing to do with Roy Moore and the present. I just hope anytime a right-wing mouthbreather tries some whataboutism by bringing up Bill C, his interlocutor quickly disavows Bill as the immoral man he was and moves on.
posted by dis_integration at 6:45 AM on November 12 [8 favorites]




i really don't see how biden runs in 2020. he may be telling people he is considering it but... no. stop trying to make 2020 happen, joe. it's not going to happen.
posted by halation at 6:50 AM on November 12 [9 favorites]


Yeah, I like Joe; keep his voice in the mix, but please don't run. We need fresh faces and fresh ideas going forward.
posted by snwod at 6:56 AM on November 12 [3 favorites]


@ddale8
GOP Sen. Pat Toomey tells Meet the Press: "I think the accusations have more credibility than the denial. I think it would be best if Roy would just step aside."
posted by chris24 at 7:10 AM on November 12 [5 favorites]


I first learned about Biden's touchy-feeliness from The Daily Show, of all places. And I'm pretty sure they did the piece just from staff noticing this pattern in all their stock Biden footage, rather than as a commentary on an existing "out there" news story. It's difficult to imagine a conservative source doing that kind of same-side policing. But I think there's clearly a long way for liberal punditry to go.

Just imagine how powerful it would have been for Jon Stewart in the early 2000s to be like "Former president Bill Clinton asked to be interviewed on our show, but you know what? I don't feel like talking to him. Ken Starr can go to hell. But Bill has a history. Even if the really famous incident is the only true one (which is doubtful) I think it's inappropriate for the country's most powerful leader to initiate a sexual relationship with his own staff. Especially with that age difference. That's not a zone of free consent. That's not a call the president gets to make; tough cookies, Bill."

Noted that real-life, not-fantasy-Jon was initially weak on the Anthony Weiner stuff, partly because of their former personal friendship. I meant "Jon Stewart" as a stand-in for "any admired liberal talking head of the era".

(Regarding Joe, it's telling that in the case of both Moore and Biden, we also have their on-the-record opinions regarding other instances of sexual misconduct/abuse. Don't forget that Biden kept Angela Wright from testifying about Clarence Thomas out of concern for Thomas's privacy.)
posted by InTheYear2017 at 7:20 AM on November 12 [9 favorites]


I'm kind of sceptical about Roy Moore's claim to have worked as a cowboy in Australia

I'm very skeptical of his claim to have worked as a cowboy in Australia. "Oh those years I disappeared? I was ... yeah, I was a champion kick boxer and a cowboy in Australia ... yeah, that's the ticket!"

Dunno. At this point, rehab or serial killer sound equally plausible.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:28 AM on November 12 [15 favorites]


I knew a guy who worked as a cowboy in Australia for a year, so I'm less skeptical. I think he did it as part of a farmhand work-exchange thing.
posted by clawsoon at 7:33 AM on November 12 [1 favorite]


GOP Sen. Pat Toomey tells Meet the Press: "I think the accusations have more credibility than the denial. I think it would be best if Roy would just step aside."

Can you help me understand what's going on here? If Toomey is making a clear statement, he thinks it will help the GOP take money from us to give to his billionaire donors. That's his overarching focus. So what's the play here for them? I can't believe Toomey would be willing to give up a GOP vote in the senate. What does he think is going to happen?

(If I were poffin boffin, I'd have a really great way to say how much I hate Toomey. Something about trebuchets and the sun? Bees?)
posted by mcduff at 7:47 AM on November 12 [6 favorites]


Yeah Chris Hayes brought this up recently: "As gross and cynical and hypocrtical as the right's "what about Bill Clinton" stuff is, it's also true that Democrats and the center left are overdue for a real reckoning with the allegations against him." and links to Juanita Broaddrick's story.

Clinton's not trying to get elected to anything. If he was running against Moore in the race for Alabama's senate seat then yeah, let's have a comparison of both sides. And then weep for the Republic because two accused sexual harassers/assaulters would be all we can present as our candidates for one of the greatest deliberative bodies in the world.

But thankfully, Doug Jones is trying to get elected not Clinton. I'm not sure why a Democrat who is now a private citizen not running for anything is anywhere near equivalent. But you know, even Chris Hayes has to go for that juicy both sidesism.
posted by Talez at 7:49 AM on November 12 [10 favorites]


N.B. Bill Clinton is a shitty person. I won't dispute that.
posted by Talez at 7:50 AM on November 12 [4 favorites]


Bill Clinton is a shitty person, and the Democrats need to stop treating him as an elder statesman. But he's not running for anything and hasn't been in office for 15 years. Honestly, the Democrats probably need to focus on cleaning house regarding predatory men who are currently in positions of power, because you know they're out there.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:57 AM on November 12 [23 favorites]


He’s not trying to run for anything, but he was very visibly campaigning for Hillary and would have been a part of the White House again if she won. There was not even a fragment of “we shouldn’t have this”. You may think he’s gross but too many Democrats don’t.
posted by corb at 7:58 AM on November 12 [3 favorites]


I remember when the whole Clinton scandal was going down. wannabe sophisticates were saying "LOL MURKIN PURITANISM" and thinking that his taking advantage of Monica Lewinsky wasn't a big deal. And the impeachment was more a matter of politics than of actual outrage. I still thought that Monica Lewinsky was wronged. Now looking back and with the revelations of Hollywood sexual abuse by Weinstein, CK and others, I'm fully convinced that Bill Clinton was very wrong and a sleaze at the least.

But. He is not running for President again, or for any other public office. I can think that Bill Clinton was wrong and a sleaze and at the same time resent the "Nuh uh YOU DO IT TOO" framing of the Republicans. They're trying to hang Bill Clinton around our necks like an albatross, maybe because they are starting to accumulate rotting fly-blown albatross carcasses.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 7:58 AM on November 12 [8 favorites]


Yes, talking about Bill has ~distraction~style qualities. But I feel like, at a certain point, if a reckoning (for any Democrat, Bill or otherwise) can't happen yet because the GOP is busy covering for a pedophile and we can't take even a molecule of oxygen out of that… then the reckoning will never happen, because the GOP is going to keep covering for pedophiles. It's kind of like the problem with "Don't talk about guns in the aftermath of a mass shooting."

Democrats police their own much better than Republicans do. "Better than Republicans" is a very low bar.

And a simple reason to reckon with Clinton is to make the standards and the stakes that much clearer to any/all current and would-be harassers in the party. It's hard to do that if the unwritten rules have a grandfather clause.. And I think all it would take is one really high-profile calling-out from the right person (e.g, definitely not Bernie or a famous Bernie supporter).

(Of course, I'd also love for the nation to have a true reckoning with respect to George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, etc…)
posted by InTheYear2017 at 8:11 AM on November 12 [5 favorites]


I still feel that Hillary should have DTMF before running for anything herself in 2000, but as a practical matter, it would have ended her political career immediately as far as the Democratic Party is concerned. But it would have made me MUCH more comfortable voting for her if she'd DTMF any time before 2016.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:11 AM on November 12 [2 favorites]


Please keep this thread focused on Moore and not Clintons, Biden, or anyone else.
posted by medusa at 8:24 AM on November 12 [21 favorites]


Be honest and ask yourself: what are the odds that Bill initiated about as bluntly as Louis CK initiated, rather than after cautiously gauging Monica's sincere interest?)

2 important facts about the Monica Lewinsky case undercut it's value as a scandal:

1) It was widely reported that Lewinsky had told a friend before she even left for Washington that she "was going to bring my presidential kneepads." This was pretty strong evidence for her sincere interest.

2) She did not ever report the incident. A friend of hers who was a personal confident and also much older took her personal confidence - what appeared to be bragging or at leadt a positive story in her own eyes - and abused Lewinsky's confidence for political gain.

Bill Clinton was wrong and a sleaze

This is also true.
posted by msalt at 8:27 AM on November 12 [19 favorites]


Given his excuses and contempt for the law, his campaign slogan should be
ROY MOORE: BARELY LEGAL (if even that)
posted by msalt at 8:31 AM on November 12


JMC poll:

Jones 46%/ Moore 42% / McBride 2% (9% undecided)

Jones 48%/ Moore 44%, McBride 2% (6% undecided–leaners included)

Generic Democrat preferred 47-45% (8% undecided)
posted by Chrysostom at 9:01 AM on November 12 [23 favorites]


Question 8: Given the allegations that have come out about Roy Moore’s alleged sexual misconduct against four
underage women, are you more or less likely to support him as a result of these allegations?

More Likely 29%

>8I
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:11 AM on November 12 [11 favorites]


...are you more or less likely to support him as a result of these allegations?
More Likely 29%

Considering the Alabaman stereotype that keeps popping up in this thread, that's encouragingly low...
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:14 AM on November 12 [1 favorite]


I wonder how much of that 29% "would support him even more after the allegations" is tolerance for pedophilia in and of itself, and how much is "Trigger the libs!!!" Of course, that's the same thing either way.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 9:19 AM on November 12 [11 favorites]


I can't believe Toomey would be willing to give up a GOP vote in the senate. What does he think is going to happen?

I would think 1. He legitimately does think Moore is scummy. 2. He’s hoping to pressure Moore into withdrawing, so they can run Strange, who would win in a walk.

Just because Republicans are willing to screw the poor for their rich buddies doesn’t make them A-OK with pedophiles.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:24 AM on November 12 [2 favorites]


I’m looking forward to more Republicans pressuring Moore to resign. I think Moore will refuse (because he really thinks he’s above reproach, and withdrawing in disgrace will end his career anyway, why not roll the dice?), but it will weaken him significantly in the general.

The scandal is going to grow, because you KNOW there’s more out there.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:28 AM on November 12 [3 favorites]


Moores history seems to be one of continually doingbasshole things, getting knocked back a bit, then winning overwhelmingly in elections, so I am not hopeful. Would say that this pattern is an Alabama only thing, but post trump I'd say he has a strong shot at GOP presidential candidate and probably even winning the thing - EC only, of course.
posted by Artw at 9:33 AM on November 12 [3 favorites]


JMC poll:

What's going on with the 18-34 crowd? They're even more rabidly Trumpist than the 65+ responders.
posted by dirigibleman at 9:45 AM on November 12 [1 favorite]


Is it a poll of likely voters? My hunch is that 18-34 people as a whole wouldn't be rabidly Trumpist, but conservative/ Trumpist 18-34s in Alabama might be disproportionately likely to vote. Most people in that age range don't vote in special or off-year elections.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:51 AM on November 12


Most people in that age range don't vote in special or off-year elections.

If Virginia is any indication, I suspect this year is a little different.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:55 AM on November 12 [3 favorites]


The poll had 575 complete responses, and only 3% of those were from people aged 18-34. Given the small sample size, it's difficult to say anything definitive about that population.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 9:56 AM on November 12 [13 favorites]


Moores history seems to be one of continually doingbasshole things, getting knocked back a bit, then winning overwhelmingly in elections, so I am not hopeful.

Moore won election back to the Supreme Court in 2012 by 52 - 48. As a Republican in Alabama, that's far from overwhelmingly. It's weak as shit.
posted by chris24 at 10:15 AM on November 12 [12 favorites]


Alabama residents have mixed reactions about the sexual misconduct allegations against Republican Senate nominee Roy Moore.

Interesting person-on-the-street interviews from The Washington Post. Not what this NYer who has never been to Alabama expected.
posted by maggiemaggie at 10:39 AM on November 12 [4 favorites]


Just because Republicans are willing to screw the poor for their rich buddies doesn’t make them A-OK with pedophiles.

The second doesn't follow naturally from the first, but in practice, it really, really does. All the "if true" hedging, the silence, the support from Alabama Republicans, that's being A-OK with pedophiles, as long as they vote Republican. And if he wins, McConnell will seat him, because he's a vote for tax cuts.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:21 AM on November 12 [2 favorites]


Dinesh D'Souza: I was lukewarm on Roy Moore until the last-minute smear. Now we must elect him to show that the @washingtonpost sleaze attack failed
posted by octothorpe at 11:21 AM on November 12 [7 favorites]


Convicted felon Dinesh D'souza
posted by Uncle at 11:29 AM on November 12 [43 favorites]


Convicted felon and child sexual abuse enabler Dinesh D'souza.
posted by Justinian at 11:34 AM on November 12 [23 favorites]


Misogynist abuser Dinesh D'souza, whose ex-wife testified at his sentencing that "it was my husband who physically abused me in April 2012 when he, using his purple belt karate skills, kicked me in the head and shoulder, knocking me to the ground and creating injuries that pain me to this day."
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:35 AM on November 12 [45 favorites]


Skeptical as I am of any landline-only poll in 2017, I'm extraordinarily skeptical of the 18-35 subsample, of any size, from a landline-only poll.
posted by zachlipton at 11:39 AM on November 12 [14 favorites]


leotrotsky: "I would think 1. He legitimately does think Moore is scummy. 2. He’s hoping to pressure Moore into withdrawing, so they can run Strange, who would win in a walk."

And/or he thinks that having Moore in the Senate would be disastrous for the party's image going into 2018.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:48 AM on November 12 [2 favorites]


T.D. Strange: "And if he wins, McConnell will seat him, because he's a vote for tax cuts."

Pedantry - it's virtually impossible not to seat him, barring evidence of a rigged election. McConnell has a decision to make about thereupon *expelling* him, but that's a separate action.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:51 AM on November 12 [1 favorite]


I don't believe a discussion of Bill Clinton is a "derail" or "distraction," any more than a discussion of Cosby or Takei is a "derail" on the Louis CK thread. These things are connected, and this seems like a reasonable thread to discuss the political aspects of what's been erupting everywhere this week, just as the Louis CK thread is the place for a wide-ranging discussion of Hollywood perpetrators. And that's because the whole point is that these are not isolated incidents, either from the side of the perpetrators and their enablers, or the side of the hundreds of women and men finally speaking out. It does matter what Bill did, and what his defenders did, and to think through how Democratic defenders in the 90s were and were not analogous to Moore defenders now. It is useful to have multiple comparison cases -- Senators, Moore in his 30s, Presidents with interns, etc, etc -- in order to work through how power and abuse can work, and what we can and should do about it. No one likes an intra-left fight, but if we're demanding a non-paristan house cleaning, we should not be unwilling to consider our own, even if it is "old news" and a "distraction" (both arguments heavily made on the right right now, btw). Obviously we should focus on new data and new insights instead of rehashing old ones, but I think a lot of people are suddenly seeing many of these things with new eyes, from "creepy uncle" Joe pics to Bill's "consenting adults" peccadilloes. Mostly in the Hollywood thread the liberal perpetrators have been cast aside as instantly as the conservatives, but this appears not quite so easy with our politicians. So we do need to have these hard conversations amongst ourselves, and not just in the easy cases of attacking the right.
posted by chortly at 11:52 AM on November 12 [14 favorites]


@davidfrum (Atlantic)
A lot of talk about how these revelations of sexual abuse from Moore et al reveal some kind of moral-cultural decline. This is wrong.
- The revelations are occurring -and have power- not because of a decline in behavior but a rise in ethical standards.
- Abuse of the weak by the strong is the most ancient theme of human history.
- It’s disgust at abuses of power that is new.
- The full and equal humanity of women is also a new idea, one that is still being absorbed in all its radical implications
- The reason things seem to be getting worse is that people are demanding better.
- True in multiple places & cultures too. There’s awesome justice in both Roy Moore and Tariq Ramadan being exposed so closely together.
- I’m not an optimist by nature. But I do sometimes perceive some gifts in this age of Trump. Maybe the revolt against sexual abuse is one of them - or can be, if you demand it
posted by chris24 at 12:02 PM on November 12 [80 favorites]


Pedantry - it's virtually impossible not to seat him, barring evidence of a rigged election. McConnell has a decision to make about thereupon *expelling* him, but that's a separate action.

Cut a deal to expel Moore and Menendez simultaneously.

I suppose Menendez could be found not guilty. Sounds like maybe a hung jury though.
posted by Justinian at 12:16 PM on November 12 [1 favorite]


Kathryn Brightbill, mentioned upthread, has expanded her thoughts into an article: Roy Moore's alleged pursuit of a young girl is the symptom of a larger problem in evangelical circles.
I use the phrase “14-year-old girls courting adult men,” rather than “adult men courting 14-year-old girls,” for a reason: Evangelicals routinely frame these relationships in those terms. That’s how I was introduced to these relationships as a home-schooled teenager in the 1990s, and it’s the language that my friends and I would use to discuss girls we knew who were in parent-sanctioned relationships with older men.
I grew up Evangelical. In my last couple of years in the church, one of the mothers tried to set me up with her daughter, who was also a student in my Sunday School class.

I was only a couple of years older than the girl, so I doubt that anyone in the church would've seen anything wrong if we had ended up married. It weirded me out a bit, though, given the teacher-student dynamic.

But if I'm honest with myself: Had I not already been thinking of leaving the church, and had I been attracted to her, my teacher-student scruples probably wouldn't have lasted long in the face of all-around approval from the church.
posted by clawsoon at 12:55 PM on November 12 [6 favorites]


When I was in high school, I thought seniors dating freshmen was creepy.
posted by rhizome at 12:57 PM on November 12 [35 favorites]


The poll had 575 complete responses, and only 3% of those were from people aged 18-34

So, 17 people total in this cohort? Yeah, that's pretty small. 63% support means 11 of them I guess.

Skeptical as I am of any landline-only poll in 2017, I'm extraordinarily skeptical of the 18-35 subsample, of any size, from a landline-only poll.

So eleven 18-34 year-olds who still live with their parents? Yeah maybe not 100% representative.
posted by msalt at 1:31 PM on November 12 [2 favorites]


Cut a deal to expel Moore and Menendez simultaneously.

But only after Chris Christie is out of office. That's crucial.
posted by msalt at 1:33 PM on November 12 [3 favorites]


Alabama residents have mixed reactions about the sexual misconduct allegations against Republican Senate nominee Roy Moore.

Interesting person-on-the-street interviews from The Washington Post. Not what this NYer who has never been to Alabama expected.


Exactly what this NYer expected:

- Women: "This guy should withdraw" "After finding this out I can't support him"
- White guys with no facial hair: "Must support him because democrats bad" "These are just allegations"
- White guys with awesome facial hair: "We all knew this guy was a creep and a hypocrite."
posted by gwint at 1:34 PM on November 12 [15 favorites]


Alabama residents have mixed reactions

Counterpoint: In Alabama, Republican Voters Stand by Roy Moore

Of more than 15 Republican voters in Alabama interviewed by NBC News, none said their support for Moore would change.
...
Inside the store, a man who declined to give his name said, "This is Republican town, man. (Moore) could have killed Obama, and we wouldn't care."

Cox, of the Greenwood Baptist Church, said as long as Moore is on the ballot, the GOP candidate would have his support.

"Everything else," Cox said, "is for the Lord to sort out."

posted by T.D. Strange at 1:59 PM on November 12 [4 favorites]


Of more than 15 Republican voters

Wtf. Srsly?
posted by petebest at 2:06 PM on November 12 [2 favorites]


Dinesh D'Souza, convicted felon, pedophilia apologist, collosal bigot (note:this tweet will not appear on German Twitter, for obvious reasons).
posted by Yowser at 2:25 PM on November 12 [4 favorites]


Counterpoint: In Alabama, Republican Voters Stand by Roy Moore

Of more than 15 Republican voters in Alabama interviewed by NBC News, none said their support for Moore would change.


@ForecasterEnten (538)
Quick nugget... Polling suggests (at this point) that at most 12 or 13% of Moore voters have changed their mind. That's enough to potentially change the outcome, but difficult to pick up outside of polling.
posted by chris24 at 2:37 PM on November 12 [8 favorites]


Just when the flood of "let's interview Trump voters" puff pieces have started to recede, the Lazy Press now gets to do "let's interview Moore voters". Well, at least they're all in one state...
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:40 PM on November 12 [2 favorites]


...of course, nobody's bothering to interview the voters behind last week's Liberal/Leftist/Democratic wins last week... way too much trouble... they'd have to do serious editing to the longer-than-tweet-length not-so-sound-bitey answers...
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:45 PM on November 12 [19 favorites]


“Everything else," Cox said, "is for the Lord to sort out.”

“I sent you a boat the testimony of multiple assault victims, asshole. Connect the me-damned dots.” - God
posted by Barack Spinoza at 2:56 PM on November 12 [33 favorites]


leotrotsky Just because Republicans are willing to screw the poor for their rich buddies doesn’t make them A-OK with pedophiles.

Well, yes, but I'd argue that we're looking at the pedophile version of racism here.

Just because Republicans are eager to screw the poor for their rich buddies doesn't make them A-OK with racists.

But you know what? they're willing to vote for racists, elect racists, and implement racist policy all in exchange for votes for their precious, precious, tax cuts for the upper .01%. I'm sure there are several Republicans who aren't fond of all the racists in their ranks or the deals their party cuts with racists. But, and this is the key part, they keep on voting for those racists and cutting deals with them and enacting their policies.

Roy Moore isn't even asking them to make pedophilia (however covert) part of the Republican platform, just to take him personally into their ranks.

And they'll do it.

This isn't hypothetical, we saw it in November of 2016 when around 62 million Republicans voted for Trump. Remember how Trump got on Howard Stern and bragged about buying a teen beauty pageant so he could go backstage and peek in on the underage girls while they changed? Remember how Trump openly lusted after his daughter when she was between 14 and 16? Remember how Trump bragged about how he could get away with sexual assault because he was rich and famous?

Sure, here, now, for the purposes of asscovering, the elected Republicans will toss out a few distancing statements. But not one of them has yet said that they'd rather people vote for a Democrat rather than a pedophile, and not one of them ever will.

Cutting their Senate majority to 51 is far, far, too risky. And that'll normalize Moore to them so that by the time his bid for re-election (assuming he wins in December) comes around he'll be part of the club and of course they'll stand by him.

They might not be A-OK with pedophiles, but they'll work with them if that's what it takes to defeat the Democrats.
posted by sotonohito at 3:42 PM on November 12 [34 favorites]


Same with nazis, Russians spies and ISIS.
posted by Artw at 4:18 PM on November 12 [10 favorites]


About the JMC poll:

They get a C rating from 538 based on 5 previous polls. That's not very good and not much a track record to go by in establishing a rating.

It's landline only. That gets you a sample of older people and people who live in rural areas that don't have cell service. It excludes younger people who live in or near cities who only use cellphones.

Their likely voter screening question was "Do you plan to vote in the US Senate special election on December 12?" This is sensitive to shifts in turnout among the population they're sampling..

They had Moore up by 8% in a poll at the end of September. In this poll, Jones was up by 4%. And they had an increase in people who said they were planning to vote in this poll.

This is in a landline-only poll that favors conservatives, but it is sensitive to changes in turnout (among people who have landlines). I'd like to see polling that's sensitive to changes in turnout, from a pollster that calls @#&*#$! cell phones and has a good track record. Nevertheless, given what we have to go on, I like these results. I think Democrats have real chance to flip this seat.
posted by nangar at 4:23 PM on November 12 [3 favorites]


A new Emerson poll out today has Moore +10. Oof. Of course their previous poll at the end of September had Moore +22. So there's that.
posted by Justinian at 4:36 PM on November 12 [2 favorites]


So, somebody tell me again, why are we holding comedians and actors to a higher moral threshold than our elected officials? History needs to know!
posted by valkane at 4:43 PM on November 12 [15 favorites]


Because Republican voters are mostly okay with child molesters and rapers of women.
posted by Justinian at 4:44 PM on November 12 [17 favorites]


I meant to add a second pull quote from the Kathryn Brightbill op-ed, but I got into a long phone conversation:
The evangelical world is overdue for a reckoning. Women raised in evangelicalism and fundamentalism have for years discussed the normalization of child sexual abuse. We’ve told our stories on social media and on our blogs and various online platforms, but until the Roy Moore story broke, mainstream American society barely paid attention. Everyone assumed this was an isolated, fringe issue. It isn’t.
posted by clawsoon at 4:49 PM on November 12 [14 favorites]


Party of misogyny and corruption.
posted by Artw at 4:53 PM on November 12 [3 favorites]


Keurig, the coffee-maker company, withdrew its ads from Sean Hannity's show in response to his actively defending Kid-Touchin' Roy.

In response, angry conservatives are calling for a Keurig boycott and uploading videos to Twitter of them smashing their Keurig machines and declaring that they're mold-ridden garbage anyway.

The machines, that is, not the Sean Hannity fans. Though the counterargument could be made.
posted by delfin at 4:54 PM on November 12 [16 favorites]


Breitbart aims to discredit Roy Moore's accusers

So, the sitting Republican President's recent chief strategist that he still talks to on a daily basis is explicitly directing character assassination against victims of pedophilia.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:55 PM on November 12 [15 favorites]


Mixed feelings about this a Keurig hater.
posted by Artw at 4:55 PM on November 12 [6 favorites]


In response, angry conservatives are calling for a Keurig boycott and uploading videos to Twitter of them smashing their Keurig machines and declaring that they're mold-ridden garbage anyway.

1996: Libruls drink fancy coffee lattes and support child molesters

2017: I'm so angry I'm going to smash my artisan coffee machine unless you support this child molester
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:57 PM on November 12 [58 favorites]


Kuerig solves the hotel room coffee problem pretty well, tho.
posted by notyou at 4:58 PM on November 12 [3 favorites]


come on - you've got to admire people who have the kuerig of their convictions
posted by pyramid termite at 5:00 PM on November 12 [65 favorites]


So, the sitting Republican President's recent chief strategist that he still talks to on a daily basis is explicitly directing character assassination against victims of pedophilia.

Attacking their own voters. Corfman is a Republican who voted for Trump.
posted by chris24 at 5:02 PM on November 12 [3 favorites]


"Everything else," Cox said, "is for the Lord to sort out."

I'm sure it is just coincidence that Republicans are also pro-asbestos.
posted by srboisvert at 5:14 PM on November 12 [4 favorites]


The party of shit where you live.
posted by Artw at 5:21 PM on November 12 [2 favorites]


2017: I'm so angry I'm going to smash my artisan coffee machine unless you support this child molester

Been wondering all day how to persuade them all to burn their houses down. Libs are all French press anyway.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:35 PM on November 12 [3 favorites]


Ha. Ha. My mom on Moore this evening: "Oh, honey, what is wrong with that man? Someone needs to tie him down and put him in a cage."
posted by octobersurprise at 6:01 PM on November 12 [7 favorites]






I just think netflix is worried it can’t make money off kevin spacey anymore, but that kinda uptake on profits hasn’t hit politics yet, because the margins are way bigger. I have hope.
posted by valkane at 6:06 PM on November 12


Opinion piece by Ronald J. Krotoszynski Jr. in the NYT: Yes, the G.O.P. Can Block Roy Moore
[Oregon Republican Senator Bob] Packwood’s case is especially instructive. He was accused of serial sexual harassment that went on for years, though he was never charged with a crime. Nevertheless, in 1995, Mitch McConnell, then the chairman of the Senate Ethics Committee, wrote the committee’s report recommending Mr. Packwood’s expulsion for a “habitual pattern of aggressive, blatantly sexual advances, mostly directed at members of his own staff or others whose livelihoods were connected in some way to his power and authority as a senator.” Hours after the report was delivered, Mr. Packwood resigned.

In other words, Mr. McConnell has already concluded that credible allegations of serious sexual misconduct should preclude a person from serving in the Senate. Does he still hold this view and is he willing to act on it?
(The rest of the OpEd is not as informed as MeFi commentary - he thinks the election could be postponed. But it's an interesting connection to historical precedent.)
posted by RedOrGreen at 6:26 PM on November 12 [7 favorites]


Btw, I know there has been a lot of polling action; the RCP average right now is +2 Moore.
posted by Chrysostom at 6:31 PM on November 12 [1 favorite]


Could we stop saying Moore "has sex" or "has had sex" with underage girls? No adult "has sex" with underage girls. Sex occurs between (or among) consenting parties. Underage girls cannot fully consent.
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:39 PM on November 12 [22 favorites]


come on - you've got to admire people who have the kuerig of their convictions

GET_OUT.GIF
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 1:44 AM on November 13 [2 favorites]


I'll bet dollars to donuts that the marketing consultantcy who came up with the word "Keurig" cited its congruence to the word "courage" in their presentation.
posted by rhizome at 2:01 AM on November 13 [4 favorites]


[Buncha comments deleted. Wow, let's NOT totally blow up the thread with made-up "yeah but what if a dem did it both sides are the same" shit. Corb, you need to leave this thread alone now and cut this crap out completely. No more.]
posted by taz at 5:18 AM on November 13 [1 favorite]


Woman Says George H.W. Bush Groped Her When She Was 16: 'I Was a Child'

This makes six allegations against him, most of which have photos from the time of the incident.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:11 AM on November 13 [5 favorites]


> Inside the store, a man who declined to give his name said, "This is Republican town, man. (Moore) could have killed Obama, and we wouldn't care."

Republican town sounds like a shitty place to live.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:21 AM on November 13 [18 favorites]


In response, angry conservatives are calling for a Keurig boycott and uploading videos to Twitter of them smashing their Keurig machines and declaring that they're mold-ridden garbage anyway.

Coming up next: an article on Buzzfeed/Imgur showing, with marked-up screenshots, that that room from one Keurig-smashing video is the same room in another video, only with different furnishings. And here it is, only with British power points on the walls, for a pro-Brexit video allegedly posted by a “patriotic football fan” from Blackburn. And here it is, a year later, in a Russian-language video for the People's Republic of Donbass.
posted by acb at 6:28 AM on November 13 [2 favorites]


Well, you have to look at it from both sides. If you're a narrow-minded white man with extreme prejudices, living in Republican town sounds pretty sweet.
posted by delfin at 6:30 AM on November 13 [3 favorites]


I used to think "what a shitty waste" every time I used a keurig pod at the office then flung the pod into the trash. Now I will think of each of them as a brave soldier against fascism making a noble sacrifice.
posted by Artw at 6:33 AM on November 13 [18 favorites]


"This makes six allegations against him"

When he was president, the White House press corps couldn't get anyone to go on the record, but sexual infidelities were widely rumored. If you read articles from that era, they'll often remark that a recently-promoted female aide "served under him in a variety of positions" which means HAD THE ADULTEROUS SEX. So I'm not super-surprised. He was using the office and its prestige to get his rocks off anyway.

(Incidentally, and not to ignite more rounds "which party is more terrible?", this was one of the reasons DC Democrats were so furious about the scandals over Clinton's infidelities -- they'd observed the long-time Washington norm of ignoring the president's side activities, but Republicans went after their guy.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:44 AM on November 13 [27 favorites]


Mainly that makes me think we need to get the generation that was cool with that out of office.
posted by Artw at 6:52 AM on November 13 [10 favorites]


I see no evidence that most people in power of any age in the US are not "cool with that".
posted by hydropsyche at 6:58 AM on November 13 [7 favorites]


I got grossly street harassed this very morning, while sitting in my own damn car (in traffic, with the other car pulled up next to me, so captive audience I guess) by a kid who was probably about 18 (bonus points: my own kid was in the back seat watching the whole thing). He seemed pretty cool with that.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:01 AM on November 13 [6 favorites]


angry conservatives are calling for a Keurig boycott and uploading videos to Twitter of them smashing their Keurig machines and declaring that they're mold-ridden garbage anyway.

I've been watching yahoos smash their appliances all weekend. So far, it's my favorite mass hysterical episode of 2017.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:50 AM on November 13 [5 favorites]


Remember when Moore and the AL GOP claimed there would be additional accusations, albeit in a way that they apparently believed would help them? They're heeeeere...

@lucia-graves: New Roy Moore accuser alleging he assaulted her when she was a minor
posted by zombieflanders at 7:51 AM on November 13 [8 favorites]


The main problem with the whole "we just have to wait for the racist/sexist old people to die off" idea is that they've spent their entire lives instilling their beliefs into their children and grandchildren.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:13 AM on November 13 [34 favorites]


Right, but we've just described JFK down to George H. Bush expecting the courtesy of a blind eye and everyone granting it to them, so you can't say nothing's changed.
posted by Artw at 8:20 AM on November 13 [3 favorites]


Harry Enten & Perry Bacon, 538: How Roy Moore Could Lose Alabama’s Senate Race
These first few polls conducted since the Moore news broke could represent just the beginning of his electoral deterioration. Polls taken immediately after Senate candidate Todd Akin used the phrase “legitimate rape” during the 2012 campaign underestimated his eventual slide in the polls compared to later surveys in the Missouri Senate race....

It would be an upset if Jones won. This is Alabama. But with Moore’s already weak standing and the latest allegations, it wouldn’t be a huge upset.
posted by nangar at 8:24 AM on November 13 [5 favorites]


@lucia-graves: New Roy Moore accuser alleging he assaulted her when she was a minor

I love the sound of shoes dropping in the morning. Smells like karma.
posted by chris24 at 8:26 AM on November 13 [11 favorites]


Mitch McConnell is now saying he “believe(s) the women” accusing Roy Moore, and that Moore should step aside. No more qualifications. It’s hard to see how Moore lasts several more weeks until the election.
posted by scarylarry at 8:27 AM on November 13 [16 favorites]


> Right, but we've just described JFK down to George H. Bush expecting the courtesy of a blind eye and everyone granting it to them, so you can't say nothing's changed.

No, absolutely, you're right...I've just seen sentiments expressed to the effect that it's just these pesky old people holding up progress on social issues, and of course it's not that simple or straightforward.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:29 AM on November 13 [4 favorites]


It’s hard to see how Moore lasts several more weeks until the election.

Moore's campaign says that Trump himself couldn't convince him to step aside and I believe them. It could turn out that Moore was actually behind Pizzagate and he'd still stay in the race and his people would stand with him.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:32 AM on November 13 [5 favorites]


Mitch McConnell is now saying he “believe(s) the women” accusing Roy Moore, and that Moore should step aside. No more qualifications. It’s hard to see how Moore lasts several more weeks until the election.

If Moore wins, McConnell will gladly welcome Moore into the senate so long as the child raping pedo votes the party line.

I'm always impressed at how they can have both double the standards and yet no standards at all.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:32 AM on November 13 [29 favorites]


Pesky old people? If we were just waiting for bad old people to die off wouldn't we have entered a golden age of equality and justice like 50,000 years ago???
posted by ian1977 at 8:35 AM on November 13 [3 favorites]


> The main problem with the whole "we just have to wait for the racist/sexist old people to die off" idea is that they've spent their entire lives instilling their beliefs into their children and grandchildren.

In Alabama, they haven't been very successful at it. In the Opinion Savvy poll, 64% of voters under thirty were voting for Jones and 57% of people between 30 and 44. Of course, the youngest cohort probably won't start voting in big numbers till they get a bit older.
posted by nangar at 8:40 AM on November 13 [5 favorites]


I tossed $50 at Doug Jones this weekend. I'm hopeful that even if the allegations don't cause Republicans to abandon Moore (and we'll see how many more shoes have yet to drop), they'll depress turnout and give Jones a chance at an upset.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:51 AM on November 13 [3 favorites]


I'm actually mustering up some grudging respect for the turtle. This year will break me.
posted by chainlinkspiral at 8:58 AM on November 13


Muster no respect for Mitch. Anything he says or does is meant 1) to preserve and maintain his own power and 2) to further his godawful agenda. The enemy of your enemy can also be your enemy.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:01 AM on November 13 [45 favorites]


The main problem with the whole "we just have to wait for the racist/sexist old people to die off" idea is that they've spent their entire lives instilling their beliefs into their children and grandchildren.

nangar already had a nice refutation of this, but I'd like to add to it. Fundamentalists / evangelicals are in a near panic over how quickly Millenials are exiting the church. The Baptists have observed that retention of twentysomethings is very low. Around 60% leave. The reasons for leaving are generally around the politics embraced by the church leadership. The full-on embrace of Republicans is one of the key reasons. Emphasis on traditional roles for women and non-acceptance of homosexuality are some of the other key reasons.

"Instilling beliefs" isn't working as well as it used to. There's no guarantee these young, ex-Evangelical people will not vote for some Republican deplorable when they get older, but there's plenty of room for hope.
posted by Teegeeack AV Club Secretary at 9:02 AM on November 13 [9 favorites]


I just finished my first 5 Postcards to Voters; every address I was given was in Alabama, which makes me happy. I'm poor as heck and don't have the money to donate but hopefully this is a small way to contribute. I want to do what I can to block Moore in the name of every benevolent God and common decency too.

For anyone who's thinking about it, writing the postcards was fun and painless and of course much less scary than, say, phone-banking (my literal social Millennial anxiety nightmare.) And it gave me an excuse to go to my local used bookstore where they have a rack of vintage postcards for $0.10. One of the photos is of an interstate exchange in Pennsylvania; another is a boring aerial shot of a community college. I think both are from the 70s. I hope whoever receives them appreciates the hilarity.
posted by WidgetAlley at 9:05 AM on November 13 [22 favorites]


McConnell is 100% motivated by the fact that, as odious as he is, Moore is not an establishment Republican and is going to be a complete bomb-throwing loon fucking up the caucus if he gets elected.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:09 AM on November 13 [17 favorites]


I just finished my first 5 Postcards to Voters;

My wife and I wrote 25 this weekend while watching tv. I found writing "This card and stamp are how I volunteer to promote a healthier democracy" over and over to be quite cathartic. I recommend it.
posted by scottatdrake at 9:13 AM on November 13 [16 favorites]


I'm actually mustering up some grudging respect for the turtle.

McConnell is smart, not principled. His rejection of Moore is a good sign because it means he's done the calculations and decided the seat is as good as lost, or else he'd be right there leading the rationalization-of-pedophilia pack.
posted by contraption at 9:15 AM on November 13 [20 favorites]


I really do think that in a lot of ways related to egalitarianism and social equality there is room for a generation shift. I'm not going to pretend everyone under the age of 30 is an enlightened gay space communist, because a lot of them are still clinging stubbornly to the old order, but I'd also consider just how much American society and legal equality has changed in living memory. The Boomers --- many of whom are still alive and voting --- were born and grew up in an era when Jim Crow was still the law of the land in many states, it was widely agreed upon that a woman's place was in the home, gay people were at best ignored and at worst persecuted, and the phrase "sexual harassment" was unknown and the behavior it described not regarded as particularly unusual or abusive.

All if these social ills are still around. They are, however, recognized (with, yes, a varying degree of perceptions as to the legitimacy of that recognition) as social ills widely, and many of them with the force of law. It's easy to forget just how recent these changes were, and that the "normal" society young people have experienced is really very different from what their elders grew up with. That matters, no matter how retrogressive the lessons they get at home are.
posted by jackbishop at 9:16 AM on November 13 [10 favorites]


Moore is Cartoon Villain Evil. Tie the Muslim to the railroad tracks, punch the minority in the face, start a riot in Jesus's name kinds of evil.

Turtle is Slowly Encroaching Evil. Foreclose on the orphanage, use Robert's Rules of Order ruthlessly, hide distasteful actions under a veneer of feigned civility kinds of evil.

Neither should ever get an invite to your dinner party.
posted by delfin at 9:30 AM on November 13 [15 favorites]


How could you pass up the opportunity to call Moore Chaotic Evil and Turtle Lawful Evil.
posted by Justinian at 9:32 AM on November 13 [19 favorites]


Screenshot of a Twitter post here: someone stating a preference for Moore over a Democrat because "Pedophiles only screw kids, Democrats screw everyone".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:38 AM on November 13 [3 favorites]


I'm surprised McConnell isn't going with the idea Murkowski floated when this broke and having Strange mount a write-in campaign.
posted by asteria at 9:49 AM on November 13


Because a traditional alignment battle could derail this thread to Timbuktu and back.

Also you could make an argument that Moore is the one who's Lawful Evil -- he has an ironclad belief system that permits no exceptions and no acceptance of any other authority as valid, like a fanatical paladin with a bad case of the brain worms. He does not act on whims or shift tactics for personal gain; he demands obedience from all.

he started it
posted by delfin at 9:49 AM on November 13 [9 favorites]


Screenshot of a Twitter post here: someone stating a preference for Moore over a Democrat because "Pedophiles only screw kids, Democrats screw everyone".

So, we've all known that the alt-right obsession with pedophiles hiding under every pizza box was a weird projection/conspiracy/hysteria/you-can't-argue-with-me-because-then-you're-saying-pedophilia-is-ok thing, but I should have known that 2017 would be like, "Hold my beer."
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:50 AM on November 13 [25 favorites]


There's no respect deserved for McConnell here.
This is better than continuing the Republican party policy of no-bar-is-too-low. Anything that hinders Moore is better than not hindering him.

But this is well below the level of any kind of deserved applause. This is like getting in your car without being shitfaced drunk. It's what you're supposed to do. If McConnell had appended this with "The Democratic candidate is a fine man. I disagree with him on a great deal of policy, but he's a fine man," or something to that effect, I might consider a begrudging nod of appreciation. This doesn't rise to that level.

The Grinch's heart didn't grow today. He just realized starting germ warfare on Christmas might get him afflicted, too.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:51 AM on November 13 [12 favorites]


he has an ironclad belief system

Yeah, I'm going to bet not. He found a belief system that allows him to bludgeon people, act sanctimonious, and "court" young girls. If Floopitarianism allowed him to do those things with impunity, he'd be a Floopitarian.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:52 AM on November 13 [5 favorites]


Screenshot of a Twitter post here: someone stating a preference for Moore over a Democrat because "Pedophiles only screw kids, Democrats screw everyone".

This is one of the 'memes' that's been traced to Russian bots pushing it like crazy. Doesn't excuse all actual Americans who agree and are repeating it of course but it sure is an example of just how much Russia is still guiding and influencing the talking points that are out there. Also how clued in they are to what works.
'
posted by Jalliah at 10:00 AM on November 13 [33 favorites]


Getting thrown out of a high-profile Chief Justice position TWICE for religious grandstanding is a funny way to show that you're not sincere about your religious bigotry, I'd say.

As for the Strange write-in campaign, running two right-wing candidates is a great way to lose a 40/30/30 race. They have to get Moore off the ballot before they can seriously entertain pushing a substitute.
posted by delfin at 10:00 AM on November 13 [5 favorites]


It's going to be very interesting to watch what the RNC does next. By publicly saying he believes the women (and thus calling Moore a liar) McConnell is burning whatever bridges he might have had left with Moore; obviously he'd only do this if he thinks Moore's chance of winning the election is slim, and outweighed by the potential harm of "GOP defends child molesters" as an ongoing national narrative. But it also means that any further actions and statements, unless he does a complete 180 and says no, actually the accusers are lying, will be designed to hurt Moore's chances of winning. If he believes a Strange write-in campaign would split Jones' vote more than Moore's, he won't push for it.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:02 AM on November 13 [3 favorites]


Screenshot of a Twitter post here: someone stating a preference for Moore over a Democrat because "Pedophiles only screw kids, Democrats screw everyone".

There's a similar tweet out there from Eric Dondero, a former Ron Paul staffer (of course) who once said he would let a Democrat drown and more relevant now in the same interview had this to say:
A close Democratic family member is hanging off the side of a cliff. A Republican who is also an admitted child molester is also nearby hanging off the side of the same cliff. They both have but seconds until they plummet to their deaths, and you only have time to save one. Whom do you save?

Man, you’re good.

I guess I ask the Democrat again to yell out “Obama sucks,” and Ill be there in a jiffy to lend him a hand (pun intended.) The Republican child molester? I tell him to join that asshole Sandusky, Ed Savitz and that former Philly DA Ed Rendell who covered up for Savitz and a whole shitload of other Democrat child molesters in southeast Pennsylvania all those years, in hell.
Looks like he didn't have the conviction to stand by his values.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:04 AM on November 13 [3 favorites]


He found a belief system that allows him to bludgeon people, act sanctimonious, and "court" young girls. If Floopitarianism allowed him to do those things with impunity, he'd be a Floopitarian.

Which *clearly* makes him Neutral Evil. [Warning: TVtropes] Specifically type 4.

Poor, neglected Neutral Evil.
posted by saturday_morning at 10:07 AM on November 13 [4 favorites]




Moore is sincere about grandstanding, I'll give him that.
posted by Artw at 10:09 AM on November 13 [3 favorites]


Bold move to attack the party leadership of the legislative body you've yet to join, and who's support you probably need.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:13 AM on November 13


Moore doesn't need leadership to win the race; frankly, fighting with leadership probably helps him among the voters he needs. It'll be very lonely in DC if he does get there, though.
posted by Justinian at 10:16 AM on November 13 [11 favorites]


I'm calling it now: next time Trump's alone with his phone, he tweets out in support of Moore. Kindred spirits, these two.
posted by klarck at 10:17 AM on November 13 [4 favorites]


It's a fascinating window into how thoroughly the Republican party has gotten away from its supposed leadership, though. This guy is a total disaster for them, and they're completely powerless to stop him.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:20 AM on November 13 [12 favorites]


@MooreSenate: The person who should step aside is @SenateMajLdr Mitch McConnell. He has failed conservatives and must be replaced. #DrainTheSwamp

1. Do other Republicans also come out strongly against Moore?

2. Do McConnell and RNC now advocate write-in campaign for Luther Strange? That should guarantee that Moore loses the seat.

If McConnell really wants Moore out, he needs to guarantee Moore will lose if he stays in the race.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:24 AM on November 13 [3 favorites]


I think that if there's a write-in campaign for Strange, then Jones probably wins the seat. That's really the only situation in which I think that Jones is the likely winner. I can't imagine that they would do it, but I guess maybe this is the "surely this" moment?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:26 AM on November 13


They must know that more women are going to come out, besides the new one this afternoon. Where then it will be untenable to assume him innocent by any but the worst of the crazies.
posted by chris24 at 10:27 AM on November 13 [10 favorites]


It's a good thing for Mitch McConnell that he gives not the slightest shit for consistency, or he might be nervous about reporters asking him why he believes the Moore victims but not the Trump victims.
posted by contraption at 10:28 AM on November 13 [29 favorites]


Despite McConnell's disavowal as far as I can tell his 2nd in command, John Cornyn, has not withdrawn his endorsement of Moore. So leadership is still waffling.
posted by Justinian at 10:28 AM on November 13 [1 favorite]


I think that if there's a write-in campaign for Strange, then Jones probably wins the seat. That's really the only situation in which I think that Jones is the likely winner. I can't imagine that they would do it, but I guess maybe this is the "surely this" moment?

Jones is up 4 in the last poll, and there's no way that there aren't more skeletons in Moore's closet. Why else would he flee to Australia?

The problem is that right now, Moore's best option is to stay in and hope to ride it out, relying on deep red Alabama's willingness to forgive and forget Republicans for crimes. Now that may not work, but the alternative (dropping out) guarantees he walks away with nothing. Worse, it makes him look weak and guilty.

To make it in Moore's interest to drop out, McConnell needs to guarantee a loss AND have somebody offer him a sweetener if he drops out, like a well-paying gig at a lobbying firm or think tank or something.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:31 AM on November 13 [2 favorites]


I don't think Roy Moore is super big on thinking.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:34 AM on November 13 [8 favorites]


> There's a similar tweet out there from Eric Dondero, a former Ron Paul staffer:

Wow, what a piece of work. If that guy threatened to cut me out of his life (were I unfortunate enough to be a part of it) I would ask him for a promise in writing.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:35 AM on November 13 [5 favorites]


I don't think Roy Moore is super big on thinking.

No, but he's clearly pretty big on guile and self-interest, same as Trump. Carrot and stick. Somebody needs to dangle an expensive carrot in front of him if they really want him out. Shame won't work, he has none.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:36 AM on November 13


Which *clearly* makes him Neutral Evil.

saturday_morning in dropping the science!
posted by octobersurprise at 10:42 AM on November 13 [1 favorite]


Sen. Collins is out, moves on from "if true": I have now read Mr. Moore’s statement and listened to his radio interview in which he denies the charges. I did not find his denials to be convincing and believe that he should withdraw from the Senate race in Alabama.

And Sen. Hatch: I stand with the Majority Leader on this. These are serious and disturbing accusations, and while the decision is now in the hands of the people of Alabama, I believe Luther Strange is an excellent alternative.

Brian Beutler, Breitbart’s Coming Exploitation of the Believe Women Movement. This is a hard read (and I'm posting it because I think it's worth thinking about, not to endorse all its contents), and I don't know what to take from it, because the answer very emphatically isn't "don't believe women," and there most certainly are abusers on the left who must be exposed. But if the right-wing media sphere starts weaponizing allegations with no credibility in an effort to shout hypocrisy and drag us into an endless war on the truth, it's going to give cover to abusers everywhere:
I can’t imagine a more straightforward way to force liberals into a toxic cycle of recriminations. Obviously, as in the cases of Weiner and Weinstein, liberals don’t reflexively circle wagons around accused abusers, but propagandists thrive on the proliferation of doubt, and in this case the doubt would stem from the far right’s inherent lack of credibility. We underrate—as in haven’t considered at all—how low the rot of bad faith in conservative media could drag the rest of us, the whole country, all on its own. But the test of it is almost certainly coming.
posted by zachlipton at 10:51 AM on November 13 [27 favorites]




One more possible wrinkle: does it HAVE to be Strange?

Obviously, Big Luther has his reasons to be backed: he's essentially the incumbent, he got Trump's sort-of endorsement, he's a team player, he already has been part of this election.

But that's also his big negative; he ran in this election primary _and lost_ and got smeared as a mainstream swamp creature. If the Moore people are screaming about mainstream conspiracies now, imagine it when the party actively backs the primary candidate that squarely LOST to their guy.

I don't know if anyone but Moore would satisfy his flock, but Strange in particular is persona non grata to them. Might a third person get an eleventh-hour push to try to peel off some fraction of Mooreheads?
posted by delfin at 11:12 AM on November 13


Greg Sargent: Ignore the spin. Trump and the GOP have made a devil’s bargain with Roy Moore.

The failure to unambiguously condemn Moore means less elite signaling that could turn moderate GOP voters against him — and allows space for the Breitbart fog machine to dissuade voters from deciding they believe the charges — making a Moore victory more likely. It also preserves a rhetorical frame in which any failure of still more incriminating evidence to surface conveniently supports the notion that the charges, in and of themselves, are not disqualifying. Republicans will then be able to accept Moore as a senator — with professed deep reservations, of course, but also with a kind of “we can’t ever know the truth” shrug. And any such carefully cultivated uncertainty could also help minimize any taint that outcome might bring to the party heading into 2018.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:12 AM on November 13 [11 favorites]


Greg Sargent: Ignore the spin. Trump and the GOP have made a devil’s bargain with Roy Moore.

This came out before McConnell's saying he believed the women and Moore should dropout. And before the second minor came forward to accuse him. Not to say that it isn't a useful view, but just that events have overtaken this to a degree.
posted by chris24 at 11:17 AM on November 13 [4 favorites]


I just want to point out that, for once, (my own) Senator "keep your head low" Rob Portman was ahead of the curve (as far as Republican reps go) in this matter.

This is what he said (emphasis mine)
last Thursday:
“If what we read is true, and people are on the record, so I assume it is, he should step aside.”
It was enough to prompt a supportive phone call from me.
posted by perspicio at 11:17 AM on November 13 [6 favorites]


Might a third person get an eleventh-hour push to try to peel off some fraction of Mooreheads?

You were saying? NYT:
One idea now being discussed under this scenario, brought up by two different White House officials who spoke on condition of anonymity, would be for Gov. Kay Ivey of Alabama to block Mr. Moore if he wins, and then immediately appoint Attorney General Jeff Sessions to what had been his seat when it becomes vacant again. Mr. Sessions remains highly popular among Alabama Republicans, but his relationship with President Trump has waned since he recused himself from the investigation of the role that Russia played in last year’s campaign.

Republicans in Washington, though, have not ruled out fielding a write-in candidate and some of the party’s outside groups were expected to conduct surveys this week of who would be most formidable prospect, according to officials familiar with the plans.
I'm telling you, the idea of getting Sessions back in the Senate so Trump can appoint a new AG who hasn't recused himself from the Russia investigation is going to be irresistible to Trump if he finds out about it.

Gloria Allred's press conference with a new accuser is at 2:30 Eastern.
posted by zachlipton at 11:24 AM on November 13 [10 favorites]


This came out before McConnell's saying he believed the women and Moore should dropout.

If McConnell and the GOP refused to have Moore in the Senate, Moore would not be in the Senate. The only way Moore gets to stay there is if the GOP lets him. Words are cheap, actions matter.
posted by Justinian at 11:24 AM on November 13 [5 favorites]


That was a rather decent article by Brian Beutler, though I wish it had been assigned to a female writer.

One reason I'm not tremendously worried about effective "counterattack", outside the general right-wing nonsense-generation machine that Buetler rightly discusses, is that the Believe Women concept basically just elevates women's testimony to the same status as other testimony about pretty much anything. It's always been the case that anyone could accuse anyone of anything, but when it comes to sexual crimes, accusers have been reflexively disbelieved. That's all that's changing. The right wing hasn't been "given a weapon" so much as the left has lost a shield that no one should have had access to in the first place. Future accusations that bypass the "Eh, women lie" step can still be knocked down for lack of merit.

If 2020 rolls around and a secret Infowars plant says "I saw [Democratic nominee] making babies and one of the babies looked at me", it will probably have the same effect on the election as "[Democratic nominee] is selling meth to treat his secret cancer". It will energize the right, which is still more effect than any lie has the right to have, of course. Yeah, some Pepe avatar are going to try "Oooh, I thought we were supposed to beliiieeeve wooomen" but I really don't think it's going to have a campaign-changing impact.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 11:25 AM on November 13 [8 favorites]


That was a rather decent article by Brian Beutler, though I wish it had been assigned to a female writer.

Does Crooked Media have female writers? My impression was that they only have one writer, and it's Beutler.
posted by lalex at 11:26 AM on November 13


an eleventh-hour push to try to peel off some fraction of Mooreheads?

craven Mooreheads, surely.
posted by Cold Lurkey at 11:29 AM on November 13 [2 favorites]




That was a rather decent article by Brian Beutler, though I wish it had been assigned to a female writer.

Same. I like Beutler, but he's walking an extraordinarily fine line. Rebecca Traister wrote an excellent article, Your Reckoning. And Mine. on dealing with all of this, working through memories, thinking about past acts, while still struggling with the power structure we're in: "We can rebuff the harasser; we can choose not to fuck the boss. But in a world where men hold inordinate power, we’re still in bed with the guy." And she hits on an anexiety that reminded me of Beutler's, though she doesn't approach it from the political angle:
Yet you can feel the backlash brewing. All it will take is one particularly lame allegation — and given the increasing depravity of the charges, the milder stuff looks lamer and lamer, no matter how awful the experience — to turn the tide from deep umbrage on behalf of women to pity for the poor, bullied men. Or one false accusation could do it. One man unfairly fired over a misinterpreted bump in the elevator could transform all of us women into the marauding aggressors, the men our hapless victims.
Breitbart is going to try to culture war this. They already are. I'm not concerned about race-changing impacts or politics at all really; I'm concerned that there's a right-wing media machine that is desperate to end this current moment in which some life-long predators are finally facing consequences for their actions. It took less than a day for child molestation to become a partisan issue. Trump brought Bill Clinton's abusers to sit in the front row of Hillary's debate.
posted by zachlipton at 11:44 AM on November 13 [8 favorites]


would be for Gov. Kay Ivey of Alabama to block Mr. Moore if he wins

Is there actually any constitutional basis for this? Because a governor saying after an election saying 'eh, I don't like you' and single-handedly blocking them seems... highly abusable at best. I can't see the Supreme Court being too friendly to that.
posted by tavella at 11:46 AM on November 13 [3 favorites]


Allred introduces Beverly Young Nelson, who says Moore "sexually assaulted" her when she was 15 and 16. She told family members about the assaults well before the election and is willing to testify under oath.
posted by zachlipton at 11:46 AM on November 13 [18 favorites]


Guys, I think lalex is correct. They don't assign writers at Crooked Media because Beutler is the writing staff. It's a small operation.
posted by Justinian at 11:46 AM on November 13 [3 favorites]


But if the right-wing media sphere starts weaponizing allegations with no credibility in an effort to shout hypocrisy and drag us into an endless war on the truth, it's going to give cover to abusers everywhere:

So is the argument that they're going to get women to falsely accuse men of sexual harassment, or that they're just going to completely fabricate accusations and people whole cloth?

Because, if it's the former, I don't know if you'll find many folks who would be willing to go public and open themselves up to defamation lawsuits for provably false accusations.

If it's the latter, I'm not sure if anonymous unsourced accusations, without the public statements and press conferences, will have the same impact.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:50 AM on November 13 [2 favorites]


Waiting for the Bowling Green Molestation to hit Fox and Friends in five... four... three...
posted by delfin at 11:55 AM on November 13 [1 favorite]


Beverly Young Nelson's story is absolutely horrifying: an attempted forcible rape of a 15/16 year old. They have documentary evidence in the form of a suggestive high school yearbook signing.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:58 AM on November 13 [6 favorites]


This is horrifying to watch, and surely far harder for her to say. Here's [cw: sexual assault] an excerpt from her statement on what he did if you want to read it.

Nelson says Moore signed her high school yearbook: "He wrote in my yearbook as follows: To a sweeter more beautiful girl I could not say Merry Christmas. Christmas 1977. Love, Roy Moore...and he signed it, Roy Moore, DA." There's a picture.

Is there actually any constitutional basis for this? Because a governor saying after an election saying 'eh, I don't like you' and single-handedly blocking them seems... highly abusable at best. I can't see the Supreme Court being too friendly to that.

No. The New York Times silently deleted that bit and is apparently hoping nobody noticed. It now reads: "would be for Gov. Kay Ivey of Alabama to immediately appoint Attorney General Jeff Sessions to what had been his seat when it becomes vacant again"
posted by zachlipton at 11:59 AM on November 13 [11 favorites]


I'm open to being corrected on this, but as far as I have read, the law is:

* Ivey can't delay the election
* Ivey can't cancel the election
* Ivey can't kick Moore off of the ballot
* Ivey can't "block" Moore if he wins
* McConnell to seat Moore if he wins (though the Senate could expel him, with 67 votes)

Moore can lose to Jones, Moore can lose to a write-in. Those are pretty much the ways to not get Moore in the Senate.
posted by
Chrysostom at 12:02 PM on November 13 [11 favorites]


The Alabama GOP could also withdraw his nomination without his consent. But they appear all in on child molestation.

I expressed skepticism that this would work earlier in the thread but enough other people seem to think it would that I am no longer confident I was right.
posted by Justinian at 12:04 PM on November 13


Yeah, I'm skeptical that that is valid, given that people (overseas, military) have already voted and returned ballots.
posted by Chrysostom at 12:06 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]


Kay Ivey just came out and said she is still voting for Roy Moore. Kay Ivey, governor of Alabama, and supporter of child molestation.
posted by Justinian at 12:06 PM on November 13 [45 favorites]


These people, I repeat, are disgusting.
posted by Barack Spinoza at 12:08 PM on November 13 [6 favorites]


Kay Ivey just came out and said she is still voting for Roy Moore.

Clearly she wasn't watching the broadcast I just watched. That was horrifying and 100% credible.

A couple of days ago, after the Washington Post story broke, I wrote that it was rock-solid but not a knockout, and the Post was probably hoping more victims would come forward.

Now it's a knockout.
posted by martin q blank at 12:10 PM on November 13 [5 favorites]


> Polls taken immediately after Senate candidate Todd Akin used the phrase “legitimate rape” during the 2012 campaign underestimated his eventual slide in the polls compared to later surveys in the Missouri Senate race....

A lot of controversy over Todd Akin's comments on "Legitimate Rape" and the miracles a woman's uterus can do when it happens. But how does the uterus KNOW when the rape is legitimate? Finally, someone with answers
posted by homunculus at 12:10 PM on November 13


Now it's a knockout.

I wish I had your optimism. I no longer believe there is anything, literally anything, that would prevent 80% of Republicans from voting for their nominee. Except maybe coming out in favor of helping poor people or taxing the rich or something.
posted by Justinian at 12:11 PM on November 13 [14 favorites]


53 Alabama pastors sign letter of support for Roy Moore

There is testimony and documentary evidence that Roy Moore violently tried to force a sex act on a 16 year old behind a dumpster.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:11 PM on November 13 [40 favorites]


I don't know if you'll find many folks who would be willing to open themselves up to defamation lawsuits for provably false accusations.

I think the idea is that they won't be provably false. The point of the accusations would not be that Democrats are sexual predators and enablers of such, but that they are hypocrites for not immediately believing any accusation of sexual assault, no matter how vague or dubious. In that sense, it would be to Breitbart et al's advantage to put out a story that was as unverifiable as possible, so that the reaction to the story, in the absence of any objective fact, would split on party lines, therefore "proving" Democratic calumny.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 12:13 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]


On those pastors: Interesting that this list is missing most of Alabama's big megachurch pastors. Moore appears to have support from religious conservatives, but not the power-players.

Note that I'm not saying it's okay that ANYONE is defending this, I'm just saying that it seems to be coming more from the fringes right now.
posted by Chrysostom at 12:14 PM on November 13 [2 favorites]


Popehat: Pro tip: do not identify yourself as a deputy district attorney in your yearbook inscriptions for teen girls
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:14 PM on November 13 [49 favorites]


Rick Hasen doesn't think they can legally have Strange resign, appoint Sessions, then call a new special election later, but that sounds like the sort of thing they're talking about here.
posted by zachlipton at 12:16 PM on November 13


There will be those who claim that Beverly Young Nelson is a Soros plant, that the yearbook was doctored by Kenyan forgers, and that evidence of Moore's innocence was in the Benghazi embassy and that's why Hillary held back Batman's rescue squad.

Thankfully, those are few in number though they sure are loud.

The people who just don't give a shit as long as their tribe wins, now, they are legion. Sometimes some of them are reachable. Today is probably not that day. But we can hope.
posted by delfin at 12:16 PM on November 13


"Asked if she thought the word of the women accusing Moore was trustworthy, she responded: "Why wouldn't it be?"

In that case, Gov. Ivey, why are you still voting for him?
posted by leotrotsky at 12:16 PM on November 13 [18 favorites]


Popehat: Pro tip: do not identify yourself as a deputy district attorney in your yearbook inscriptions for teen girls

And why did he do that? I honestly believe it was because of the implication.

To be clear, I'm not making a joke here. I legitimately think this was Roy Moore's mindset. He was saying, effectively, "I'm important, and I can cause you trouble."
posted by leotrotsky at 12:19 PM on November 13 [19 favorites]


The Gang Runs A Senatorial Campaign?
posted by Justinian at 12:20 PM on November 13 [6 favorites]


@gdebenedetti: !! NRSC chairman Gardner on Moore: "If he refuses to withdraw and wins, the Senate should vote to expel him."

Also Gardner, the guy in charge of getting Republicans elected to the Senate: "He does not meet the ethical and moral requirements of the United States Senate"
posted by zachlipton at 12:20 PM on November 13 [15 favorites]


53 Alabama pastors sign letter of support for Roy Moore

They worship white supremacy and patriarchy, so of course they did.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:27 PM on November 13 [17 favorites]


1) Roy Moore wins.
2) Senate expels him.
3) Ivey appoints Jeff Sessions to fill vacancy.
4) Trump nominates new AG.
5) New AG fires Mueller.
6) PROFIT!
posted by Justinian at 12:27 PM on November 13 [12 favorites]


"If he refuses to withdraw and wins, the Senate should vote to expel him."

The Senate? OUR Senate? The group that confirmed Betsy DeVos and Brett Talley? They should break with standard protocol and try to eject someone with an (R) after his name?

Someone who hasn't even been convicted of crimes, who's being accused of acts that much of the country believes are "boys will be boys" offenses at worst, or "signs of affection; she should consider herself lucky he noticed her?"

BWAHAHAHA. Right. I mean, it's a lovely thought, but I wish political commentators would stick to suggestions that might remotely be possible.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:27 PM on November 13 [6 favorites]




BWAHAHAHA. Right. I mean, it's a lovely thought, but I wish political commentators would stick to suggestions that might remotely be possible.

That... isn't a political commentator. It's Cory Gardner, conservative senator from Colorado and chairman of the National Republican Senate Committee.
posted by Justinian at 12:29 PM on November 13 [13 favorites]


I fucking hate these people. And I have the sinking feeling in my stomach that I did before Trump was elected, where there were all these elaborate ideas about how to constrain him if he won, but really the only constraint was not to elect him in the first place.

I'm feeling pretty confident that Moore probably will win, that the GOP will express "grave concerns" and whatnot about him, and then business will go on as usual.

This is identical to what happened with Trump last year. Horrible unfit sexual predator candidate ->some Republicans hem and haw and refuse to endorse, but also refuse to endorse opponent->horrible unfit sexual predator candidate wins->Republicans furrow brow and look constipated but refuse to take any actual action.

And no I don't believe Republicans have any ability to rein themselves in at this point. There is absolutely no moral bottom floor to what they'll enable or tolerate. Nazis, white supremacists, sexual predators, people with zero experience or credentials, people who flagrantly break the law, hostile foreign agents - they. don't. care.

I'm sorry to sound so doom and gloom. I don't feel doom and gloom, I feel fighty and fired up. But just also depressed and disgusted. Ugh.
posted by supercrayon at 12:33 PM on November 13 [11 favorites]


Cory Gardner knows his job in 2018 will be easier if every one of his incumbents doesn't have to deal with "Sen X stands with child molester Roy Moore" ads. Most of the Senate never wanted Moore to begin with; having him win and replacing him with Sessions solves all their problems.

Justinian: step 5.5 is obviously the groundbreaking of Trump Tower Moscow.
posted by zachlipton at 12:33 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]


2016 isn't 2017. Remember Virginia.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:34 PM on November 13 [9 favorites]


Roy Moore is the point where I say: shut the hell up to me forever and ever about "polarization" and "tribalism" and "both sides" and how we need to build bridges with our political adversaries. Because anyone who supports Roy Moore or votes for him or does not condemn him in the strongest terms and urge people to vote for others is DEAD TO ME. And I don't care how nice they are to their grandkids or how much adversity they have experienced in life (and I know many Republican voters have experienced that, and I feel for them, but it's no excuse) or how they're low-info voters, etc. This is an irrevocable dealbreaker in terms of my being willing to assume a modicum of good faith and decency on your part.

Holy moly, in this year of grace 2017, Orrin Fucking Hatch is taking the most aggressively moral stance on this issue within the entire Senate:
Sen. Hatch: I stand with the Majority Leader on this. These are serious and disturbing accusations, and while the decision is now in the hands of the people of Alabama, I believe Luther Strange is an excellent alternative.
By my count, this makes Hatch the only (or one of the only, been AFK for a few hours) Republicans in the Senate or elsewhere who has overtly said, "do not vote for Roy Moore. Vote for someone else." Hey, nearly the entire GOP: when you are less woman-supportive and in line with contemporary social mores and values than Orrin Hatch, you have some FUCKING PROBLEMS I can't help you with.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:34 PM on November 13 [40 favorites]


because it's 2017, the only plausible outcome of recent events is that white folks in alabama are going to send roy moore to the senate out of pure spite
posted by murphy slaw at 12:37 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]


Shep Smith is saying that Jeff Sessions says he has no interest in the old Senate seat, so everyone can cut out the Trump Tower Moscow fanfic. Of course that's assuming that Jeff is trustworthy, but we know that he's a man of honor.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:39 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]


These people need to be trounced and their party stomped into the dirt and the earth salted.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:39 PM on November 13 [18 favorites]


It takes 2/3 of the Senate to expel a Senator. The Democrats should demand a trial on the Senate floor, saying "because everyone should get a fair trial" but really to damn him as guilty.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:41 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]


Um. I think maybe they should just take YES for an answer and not get cutesy.
posted by Justinian at 12:41 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]


Ben Jacobs (Grauniad) on Twitter:

Moore advisor Dean Young says:
"He’s going to run, he's going to win and he’s going to be seated or there will be in trouble in this nation"


Get your popcorn ready.
posted by delfin at 12:42 PM on November 13 [13 favorites]


The Republican party should have dissolved after the Civil War. It's been a steep slide downward ever since.
posted by dirigibleman at 12:43 PM on November 13


Paging Mr. Sherman. Mr. Sherman to the white courtesy phone?
posted by Justinian at 12:43 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]


> Also Gardner, the guy in charge of getting Republicans elected to the Senate: "He does not meet the ethical and moral requirements of the United States Senate"

Talk about damning the rest of the Senate with faint praise.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:46 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]


The Republican party should have dissolved after the Civil War. It's been a steep slide downward ever since.

Before or after they passed the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments? Because southern Republicans in 1870 don’t look like southern Republicans today.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 12:47 PM on November 13 [12 favorites]


The Republican party should have dissolved after the Civil War 1960's Civil Rights Act passed. It's been a steep slide downward ever since.
Historically fixed.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:52 PM on November 13 [10 favorites]


The Republican party should have dissolved after the Civil War. It's been a steep slide downward ever since.

I think you mean we shouldn't have screwed up Reconstruction, we should have come down hard on revanchist southern Democrats, and prevented the rise of Jim Crow. I'm with you there.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:52 PM on November 13 [9 favorites]


The mistake, as always, was trying to find a middle ground with shitheads. If Lincoln hadn't run on a unity ticket with Andrew Johnson in 1964, he would've been replaced by another Republican (or maybe wouldn't have been assassinated at all, if there wasn't a possibility that killing him would switch the party in power) and Reconstruction would have gone very differently.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:57 PM on November 13 [7 favorites]


This is horrifying to watch, and surely far harder for her to say. Here's [cw: sexual assault] an excerpt from her statement on what he did if you want to read it.

WOW. Roy Moore is exactly as bad as advertised.

Alabama conservatives. C'mon now. You know better.
posted by petebest at 1:00 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]


I have to say that essentially subtweeting Roy Moore in my postcards by talking about Doug Jones' history of fighting for justice for children has been pretty satisfying.
posted by threeturtles at 1:00 PM on November 13 [12 favorites]


Where have you gone, Hannibal Hamlin, a nation turns its lonely eyes to you...
posted by Huffy Puffy at 1:01 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]


Nelson says Moore looked at her and said, "You're just a child and I am the district attorney...if you tell anyone about this, no one will ever believe you." Then let her leave. He "burned rubber," she says, leaving her lying on concrete in the dark.
Back in the old days people still had a sense of shame. He knows no shame. The Republicans of Alabama either want their side to win the political football game or they just don't care. They know no shame anymore.
posted by Talez at 1:07 PM on November 13 [9 favorites]


Ryan Grim (The Intercept): Promising to expel Roy Moore if he's elected is both a good thing in and of itself, but also a good thing for the Senate GOP, since it would allow Republicans in AL to vote for him with a clean conscience, knowing it's a fake vote
posted by PenDevil at 1:09 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]


Promising to expel Roy Moore if he's elected is both a good thing in and of itself, but also a good thing for the Senate GOP, since it would allow Republicans in AL to vote for him with a clean conscience, knowing it's a fake vote

Interesting. turning the protest vote against McConnell and "the swamp" of establishment Republicans into a blank check to select the Senator of their choice is a smart move, but it also makes Doug Jones the only candidate for the seat who won't result in a rubber stamp for Mitch McConnell's agenda, at a time when "rubber stamp for Mitch McConnell's agenda" might not outpoll syphilis in Alabama.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:13 PM on November 13 [2 favorites]


We urge you to join us at the polls to cast your vote for Roy Moore.

In your service,

[53 Alabama pastors whose churches would lose tax-exempt status immediately if the Johnson Amendment were actually enforced.]

posted by gurple at 1:13 PM on November 13 [39 favorites]


Nelson says Moore looked at her and said, "You're just a child and I am the district attorney...if you tell anyone about this, no one will ever believe you." Then let her leave. He "burned rubber," she says, leaving her lying on concrete in the dark.

...that needs to go in every ad until election day.

Hell, they should shoot a reenactment America's Most Wanted style and air that. Over and Over and Over.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:17 PM on November 13 [16 favorites]


Promising to expel Roy Moore if he's elected is both a good thing in and of itself, but also a good thing for the Senate GOP, since it would allow Republicans in AL to vote for him with a clean conscience, knowing it's a fake vote

Yeah, it's but it's basically telling all the Deplorables that voting for Roy Moore is a waste of time, because McConnell will just pick whoever he wants. It says, effectively, a vote for Moore is even worse than a throwaway, it's a vote for Mitch McConnell and the "swamp." That should depress turnout significantly.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:19 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]


That should depress turnout significantly.

Oh please oh please oh please
posted by Existential Dread at 1:21 PM on November 13


I'm done trying to decipher the thinking of Trumpists. Who fucking knows how they'll react to any of this shit? It was an interesting thought experiment for a while, but none of this shit makes any sense, even of the most horrible kind.

Getting out the vote is all that matters in the end.
posted by duffell at 1:22 PM on November 13 [10 favorites]


Maybe McConnell could endorse Merrick Garland.

Just to watch everyone's head explode.
posted by delfin at 1:22 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]


I honestly think Doug Jones will do better if he stays out of this and focuses on his personal integrity and policy proposals.
posted by lalex at 1:23 PM on November 13 [12 favorites]


Melissasaurus: "For those who want to act locally (...) investigate your state's child marriage laws"

"The minimum age for marriage across most of the US is 18, but every state has exemptions – such as parental consent or pregnancy – which allow younger children to tie the knot."

Hold on

why in this holy fucking hell of hells does RAPE constitute a reason for a child to marry????
posted by Tarumba at 1:26 PM on November 13 [11 favorites]


lalex: "I honestly think Doug Jones will do better if he stays out of this and focuses on his personal integrity and policy proposals."

I think he is, pretty much.
posted by Chrysostom at 1:28 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]


I honestly think Doug Jones will do better if he stays out of this and focuses on his personal integrity and policy proposals.

He should focus laser-like on "Doug Jones will save your healthcare", "Doug Jones won't take your money and give it to the wealthy", "Doug Jones will fight for you to be able to support your family on a decent wage" and let Moore continue to self-immolate.
posted by Justinian at 1:29 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]


why in this holy fucking hell of hells does RAPE constitute a reason for a child to marry????

Bible. Story of Dinah.
posted by Rust Moranis at 1:30 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]


The Keurig boycotters have it hilariously backwards.

You won't support Keurig or buy their products anymore? You do realize Keurig pulled their advertising from the show you like because they determined its viewers were people whose money they didn't want or need anymore, right?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:31 PM on November 13 [6 favorites]


Girls under age 18 can consent to sex in some circumstances. Like there’s usually an exception for sex with partners of a similar age. So it’s not the case that all teen pregnancies are the result of rape.
posted by chrchr at 1:31 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]


I think he is, pretty much.

I agree, and I'm pleased by it. His campaign seems to also be running with an appropriately very subtle undertone of "hey, Alabama, let's do something that isn't nationally humiliating for a change" and man I can see why.
posted by lalex at 1:32 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]


Luther Strange is wishing he hired better oppo research people.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:32 PM on November 13 [16 favorites]


Trumpettes are training advertisers to not advertise on Hannity/Fox. Easiest way to avoid controversy and/or boycott by right or left is to not advertise there in the first place.
posted by chris24 at 1:34 PM on November 13 [21 favorites]


Girls under age 18 can consent to sex in some circumstances. Like there’s usually an exception for sex with partners of a similar age.

"Some circumstances" including living in most the USA since the age of consent is mostly less than 18.
posted by Justinian at 1:34 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]


luther strange could be forgiven for thinking that the things that roy moore did in the public record would render any opposition research superfluous
posted by murphy slaw at 1:35 PM on November 13 [5 favorites]


why in this holy fucking hell of hells does RAPE constitute a reason for a child to marry????

Bible. Story of Dinah.


Right, but then her brothers come and slaughter everyone, so I'm not sure what the takeaway is there.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:36 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]


Trumpettes are training advertisers to not advertise on Hannity/Fox. Easiest way to avoid controversy and/or boycott by right or left is to not advertise there in the first place.

If the marketing departments of the current advertisers were smart, they'd coordinate a simultaneous withdrawal to scatter the criticism against multiple targets.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:38 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]


This is horrifying to watch, and surely far harder for her to say. Here's [cw: sexual assault] an excerpt from her statement on what he did if you want to read it.

Huh, missed the part where he read poetry to her.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:42 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]


Right, but then her brothers come and slaughter everyone, so I'm not sure what the takeaway is there.

I always thought the takeaway was to convince your enemies to get circumcised immediately before you surprise-slaughter them.
posted by Rust Moranis at 1:42 PM on November 13 [6 favorites]


@Lindsey Graham, in late BUT with the implied threat:
In light of the most recent allegations and the cumulative effect of others, I believe #RoyMoore would be doing himself, the state, the GOP, and the country a service by stepping aside.

If he continues this will not end well for Mr. Moore.
posted by lalex at 1:43 PM on November 13 [13 favorites]


CNN says Cornyn withdrew support.
posted by Rust Moranis at 1:45 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]


Cornyn has withdrawn his endorsement. I believe the list of Senators that have endorsed Moore is now as follows:

1) Ted Cruz.

That's the list.
posted by Justinian at 1:45 PM on November 13 [31 favorites]


BUT with the implied threat: ... If he continues this will not end well for Mr. Moore.

I said earlier that McConnell and crew had to know about more women, which was why they were explicitly dumping him. Now I think they not only know, but have some ugly evidence.
posted by chris24 at 1:46 PM on November 13 [5 favorites]


so I'm not sure what the takeaway is there.

Uh, Jeezus. Duh.
posted by petebest at 1:47 PM on November 13


If the marketing departments of the current advertisers were smart, they'd coordinate a simultaneous withdrawal to scatter the criticism against multiple targets.

Well they know that the Deplorables have a short attention span and, within months if not weeks of Fox having moved on, will have forgotten entirely why they hated $company so much and will go back and buy another Keurig.

I mean, they don't hate Keurig. They just hate black people, brown people, immigrants, and their liberal enablers. They'll move along and corporate America will end up making a profit anyway.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:48 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]


Justinian: "Kay Ivey just came out and said she is still voting for Roy Moore. Kay Ivey, governor of Alabama, and supporter of child molestation."

There may be a reason for this:
Note @ALGOP bylaws are partly to blame. As @ChairmanLathan said elected officials who endorse a Dem MAY be kept from running in future as Republican. With Armistead as chair the steering committee removed candidates for merely posting negative Facebook comments about Moore in '12
Ivey may be looking to her re-election.

(not defending, obviously)
posted by Chrysostom at 1:49 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]


I always thought the takeaway was to convince your enemies to get circumcised immediately before you surprise-slaughter them.

Ah, Rust Moranis you've got an enterprising career ahead of you... somewhere
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:50 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]


"This makes six allegations against him"

When he was president, the White House press corps couldn't get anyone to go on the record, but sexual infidelities were widely rumored.


True.

He was taunted about it by one Donna Brazile.
posted by jgirl at 1:53 PM on November 13


There may be a reason for this:

And yet it just makes Kay Ivey seem even worse.
posted by petebest at 1:57 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]


1) Ted Cruz.

That's the list.


Rand Paul hasn't withdrawn his endorsement, either.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:59 PM on November 13


Cornyn hasn't either I don't think.
posted by chris24 at 2:00 PM on November 13


He did, about a 1/2 hour ago.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:01 PM on November 13 [2 favorites]


I was cutting Rand Paul a little slack since he was beat to shit by his... friend... in that assault. He's back now, though, so that slack ends in like 12 hours.
posted by Justinian at 2:02 PM on November 13 [5 favorites]


The only thing weaker than Rand Paul's ribcage is his spine.
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:02 PM on November 13 [16 favorites]




I know this is a Moore thread, but one of the biggest rightwing nutjob supporters of Moore has been actor James Woods, a real crazy and popular figure on the extreme right. Well...

James Woods Named by Actress Elizabeth Perkins at #MeToo Rally

Amber Tamblyn previously said Woods asked her out when she was 16 and he was 52.
posted by chris24 at 2:07 PM on November 13 [30 favorites]


There. Is. Always. A. Tweet.

@realDonaldTrump
@rexrode_lisa: "@realDonaldTrump you date girls young enough to be your daughter.That's perverted" - Dated. No, that's talent.
posted by chris24 at 2:08 PM on November 13 [13 favorites]


James Woods is also a vocal Republican. Coincidence? No.
posted by Justinian at 2:08 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]


I was cutting Rand Paul a little slack since he was beat to shit by his... friend... in that assault. He's back now, though, so that slack ends in like 12 hours.

Eh. If he had enough time to retweet Breitbart conspiracy theories about his beatdown a week ago, he had enough time to rescind his endorsement.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:09 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]


The twitter user @rexrode_lisa who RealDon retweeted is a suspended account.

Twitter, a subsidiary of Trump Corp.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:12 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]


With straight face, and apparently no sense of irony, Kellyanne Conway says “If there’s anyone currently in public office who has behaved that way to any girl or woman, maybe they should step aside.
posted by zakur at 2:13 PM on November 13 [35 favorites]


Somebody check if James Woods has been in any Weinstein productions... If Moore is two degrees of separation from Horrible Harvey, wellllll...
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:14 PM on November 13


Breitbart’s Coming Exploitation of the Believe Women Movement.

No doubt they will try to use "I believe her" to attack progressives. And frankly, progressives have not done a good enough job yet of explaining I Believe. It's not about ending any skepticism toward any allegation. It's about the default response being to believe the allegation, just as we do with every single other crime.

There are people whose job and proper role is to scrutinize charges of wrongdoing: detectives, prosecutors, judges, juries, and journalists. "I believe" is not for them, though it's important that they keep the same standard for gender crimes as for any other. Police should not be more skeptical about rape allegations than mugging allegations, as they often are now.

But I Believe is for the general public. We should believe all people who claim to have been attacked as the default. If more information comes out casting doubt on the claim, it's fine and appropriate to change. If a false allegation is proven, we should turn on the accuser with the fury of a thousand suns, because it harms every victim to do that.

If this is worked out, Breitbart's attempt to manipulate the movement will backfire. But progressives need to get ahead of this issue and clarify it NOW before it's tied up in a big partisan battle over, say, Trump's accusers.
posted by msalt at 2:23 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]


@kylegriffin1
Republican Sen. Bill Cassidy (LA): "It’d be better if someone replaced Judge Moore."

VIDEO
posted by chris24 at 2:40 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]


Yeah, what made the Post's story so solid is that they did all that work -- they interviewed the girl he assaulted when she was 14, but they also interviewed people around her to confirm that they had been told about it many years ago, and found a bunch of other people who he dated or tried to date when they were teenagers, which helped confirm the pattern. Similarly, Allred apparently has confirmations from the family of this newest victim of being told years ago, plus the yearbook.

It can be tricky, because sometimes people can be supersensitive about applying analysis to these stories. Remember back in 2008, the Ashley Todd case? I was on a message board and pointed out that there were some extremely weird and unlikely things about the story. Not in a 'this is definitely fake' way*, just that I was going to reserve judgement. And I had someone literally call me the worst person in the world.

*Well, until the photo came out, when it was clear that the black eye was fake (no swelling) and the 'cut' wasn't made by any knife.
posted by tavella at 2:41 PM on November 13 [5 favorites]




It's raining dropout calls.

@SenThomTillis (R - NC)
The allegations leveled at Roy Moore are disturbing. I have serious concerns about his prior conduct and fitness for office. He should immediately withdraw from the race.
posted by chris24 at 2:45 PM on November 13 [6 favorites]


Alabama's other Senator weighs in. @jamiedupree: Sen Richard Shelby R-AL on Roy Moore: "I think he ought to seriously think about dropping out"

I mean, "ought to seriously think about" is near meaningless, but it's something.

Of course, I remember how quickly they were all saying this stuff over the Access Hollywood tape and all came crawling back to Trump really fast.
posted by zachlipton at 2:46 PM on November 13 [14 favorites]


Good lord, Republican politicians are a concerned bunch. Always so very full of concerns of the highest and most serious order.
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:48 PM on November 13 [8 favorites]


Thoughts and prayers.
posted by petebest at 2:51 PM on November 13 [15 favorites]


Of course, I remember how quickly they were all saying this stuff over the Access Hollywood tape and all came crawling back to Trump really fast.

True but 2016 was its own terrible beast: the Podesta emails were released the same day as the Access Hollywood tape, for chrissakes. I'm not saying it's impossible for a Doug Jones Spirit Cooking scandal to be concocted, but it's a different dynamic.
posted by Rust Moranis at 2:52 PM on November 13




We live in truly the stupidest timeline:
Sean Hannity tells supporters to "hold their fire" on smashing Keurig products. Said: "In my opinion, Keurig was a victim of a group that has a radical agenda, and they didn't know. I'm convinced." (Hannity has 5 Keurig machines, he said.)

Hannity: "I accept the apology of the CEO today and please stop breaking your Keurig machines." (lol)

Hannity: "Conservatives drink coffee. Everyone drinks coffee. Coffee should be non-political! But that's not the environment we're living in." (He also re-iterated that he has 5 machines in different parts of his house.)

HANNITY SAYS HE WILL UN-RETWEET THE KEURIG-SMASHING VIDEOS AND WILL REPLACE ANYONE'S KEURIG MACHINE FOR THOSE WHO SMASHED THEM.
posted by zachlipton at 2:59 PM on November 13 [8 favorites]


"I think he should drop out" is so craven. It allows them to say later, "Hey, I think he's terrible and told him to drop out, but he chose not to and people elected him, so nothing can be done [shrug]. But I did my best!"

Tell people not to vote for him and/or endorse Doug Jones, you asshats.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:01 PM on November 13 [12 favorites]


Jeff Flake said the thing

Still voted for a federal judge nominee who is a blogger who has practiced law for all of three years and never argued a case in court, and who also believes that the response to any sort of gun control is for gun owners to take violent action. So...meh.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:05 PM on November 13 [21 favorites]


Avalanche.

@jaketapper
Sen. Todd Young, R-IN: “After giving Roy Moore ample time to unequivocally deny the disturbing allegations against him, those allegations remain far more persuasive than the denials. Roy Moore should immediately drop out of the race...” 1/2
- 2/2 “... The appearance of grossly reprehensible behavior disqualifies him from service in the United States Senate. If he does not step aside, we need to act to protect the integrity of the Senate.”
posted by chris24 at 3:10 PM on November 13 [10 favorites]


we need to act to protect the integrity of the Senate

Why start now, Senator?
no, this is good. better late, as they say, than never.
posted by Barack Spinoza at 3:12 PM on November 13 [8 favorites]


(Hannity has 5 Keurig machines, he said.)


I AM SEANHOLIO!!!! I NEED GOP FOR MY BUNGHOLE!!!!
posted by pyramid termite at 3:13 PM on November 13 [19 favorites]


> "Conservatives drink coffee. Everyone drinks coffee. Coffee should be non-political! But that's not the environment we're living in."

Hannity's audience: "Everyone? LIE-berals drink coffee????" *immediately start drinking bleach to get the taste of coffee out of their mouths*
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:13 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]


Nelson says Moore looked at her and said, "You're just a child and I am the district attorney...if you tell anyone about this, no one will ever believe you." Then let her leave. He "burned rubber," she says, leaving her lying on concrete in the dark.

...that needs to go in every ad until election day.

Hell, they should shoot a reenactment America's Most Wanted style and air that. Over and Over and Over.


Except... I would bet that conservative parents would be upset that their poor innocent children saw the ad. And then they would go vote for a man who has repeated sexually assaulted children.
posted by mcduff at 3:20 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]


@MEPFuller: "I would literally — if I were in Alabama — I would run to the polling place to vote for the Democrat." –Sen. Jeff Flake (R-Arizona)

Meanwhile, from the department of people who are still running for things, Cruz and Paul are still endorsing Moore.
posted by zachlipton at 3:27 PM on November 13 [11 favorites]


More shoes to drop.

CNN: AL reporter: Other Moore accusers are out there

VIDEO
posted by chris24 at 3:32 PM on November 13 [8 favorites]


New Yorker, Charles Bethea, Locals Were Troubled by Roy Moore’s Interactions with Teen Girls at the Gadsden Mall, in which there's been a local story for ages that Roy Moore was banned from the mall for harassing teenage girls there.
posted by zachlipton at 3:37 PM on November 13 [39 favorites]


This was all widely known in Alabama, and they elected him Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court, twice.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:38 PM on November 13 [23 favorites]




The more I read, the more disgusted I become. It is truly horrible that all of his contemporaries seemed to have turned a blind eye to his reputation. The guy was banned from a shopping mall because he was such a creep yet he was elected Alabama Supreme Court Judge twice. Did this not bother anyone? Did they all feel powerless?

And I don't even know what to say about his wife. Did she marry him not knowing about his predilections or did she think she could "save" him? I really hope she didn't marry him and then find out afterwards-- what a nightmare.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:52 PM on November 13 [2 favorites]


Moore held a "press conference," but didn't take any questions. He calls Nelson's accusations "absolutely false. I never did what she said I did, I don't know the woman, I don't know anything about her, I don't know where the restaurant is or was" (full transcript)

But the yearbook!
posted by zachlipton at 3:55 PM on November 13 [17 favorites]


Also, when you assaulted her, Mr. Moore, she wasn’t a “woman.” She was a girl. Rot in hell, you hypocrite.
posted by Barack Spinoza at 3:56 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]


I don't know the woman, I don't know anything about her, I don't know where the restaurant is or was"

Sounds like he is panicking. These aren't very good lies.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:58 PM on November 13 [11 favorites]


Reminds me of an old Bloom County. Bill the Cat's televangelist alter ego, Fundamentally Oral Bill, has been caught in a compromising scandal. How will his flock react to his transgressions?

FUNDAMENTALLY ORAL BILL: God has forgiven me. Why can't you?
VIEWER: Makes sense. Luther, send him little Bobby's college fund.
posted by delfin at 3:58 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]


Paraphrased from Twitter: Moore was named Most Likely to Regret Signing the Yearbook at Gadsen High that year.
posted by chris24 at 3:59 PM on November 13 [16 favorites]


ROY MOORE: First off, I don't know the woman, I don't know anything about her. Second, when I knew her she was a horrible temptress slutmobile. And finally, when I returned her to that restaurant that I don't know where it is or was, she was an untouched virgin.
posted by delfin at 4:00 PM on November 13 [5 favorites]


I don't know where the restaurant is or was and I definitely didn't find their pancakes to be insufficiently fluffy nor did I find their decor pedestrian.
posted by Justinian at 4:00 PM on November 13 [6 favorites]


I don't know the woman, I don't know anything about her, I don't know where the restaurant is or was

Ooh, Moore is still at stage one! Can't wait to watch him progress through the other stages and still become a senator.
posted by supercrayon at 4:01 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]


Ted Cruz's statement is an utter mess: "I am not able to urge the people of Alabama to support his candidacy so long as these allegations remain un-refuted." That leaves just Sen. Paul endorsing.
posted by zachlipton at 4:01 PM on November 13 [12 favorites]


But the yearbook!

Yearbook not only proves he knows her, but proves he knew the restaurant, both of which he denies.
posted by chris24 at 4:02 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]


“I’m not not not un-re-endorsing this child molester.” - Voice of moral clarity Ted Cruz
posted by Barack Spinoza at 4:03 PM on November 13 [33 favorites]


I'm always creeped out trying to figure out the motives behind the "I don't even know the woman in question!" defense that sexual predators trot out. Like are they so used to intimidating and gaslighting that they think it will actually work? Or have they assaulted so many women that they honestly can't remember all of them.
posted by supercrayon at 4:03 PM on November 13 [8 favorites]


Nelson said Moore came to the restaurant pretty much every night. I assume someone is searching for her former co-workers now.
posted by zachlipton at 4:06 PM on November 13 [8 favorites]


Claire McCaskill?: "As an experienced sex crimes prosecutor I recognize the shifts in Roy Moore’s “denials”. They completely undermine his credibility. I agree with many of my R colleagues. He doesn’t belong in the Senate. Period."

Moore's denials fit the pattern more with each statement.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:08 PM on November 13 [51 favorites]


Alabama Media Group, Anna Claire Vollers, Gadsden locals say Moore's predatory behavior at mall, restaurants not a secret. Everybody knew.
And yet people who lived in Etowah County during that time have said Moore's flirting with and dating much younger women and girls was no secret.

"These stories have been going around this town for 30 years," said Blake Usry, who grew up in the area and lives in Gadsden. "Nobody could believe they hadn't come out yet."
And hey, look, it's another waitress who says that Moore knows all about the restaurant:
Another former waitress, Victoria Beverstock, told AL.com today that she was 20 years old and working at The Poor House restaurant in 1992 when Moore came in a few times a week to eat and do paperwork.

She said he made her and the other waitresses uncomfortable by staring at them and flirting.

"He watched us girls quite openly," said Beverstock. "His eyes crawled over our shirts and our backsides. He was so open about it that I would try and handle his order as quickly as possible.

"When you didn't smile and flirt back with him, give him an opening, he became rude and demanding," she said.
posted by zachlipton at 4:10 PM on November 13 [27 favorites]


> I don't know the woman, I don't know anything about her, I don't know where the restaurant is or was

I assume this is the general tenor of his statement, only more arrogant.
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:11 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]


@kylegriffin1:
"These stories have been going around this town for 30 years."

@aldotcom spoke with area residents who say Roy Moore's "penchant for flirting with teen girls was 'common knowledge' and 'not a big secret' around Gadsden".
/files/www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2017/11/gadsden_residents_say_moores_b.html
posted by chris24 at 4:11 PM on November 13 [2 favorites]


I'm always creeped out trying to figure out the motives behind the "I don't even know the woman in question!" defense that sexual predators trot out.

Among other things, it's a way to continue to hurt the victim by dismissing their traumatic experience and to silence others who might come forward. It's in the same playbook as saying, "she's not attractive enough for me to have assaulted her."
posted by peeedro at 4:14 PM on November 13


Chris Hayes: "Is Bannon planning on primarying *every* sitting GOP senator with an alleged child molester? #MasterMind"
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:15 PM on November 13 [46 favorites]


Nelson said Moore came to the restaurant pretty much every night. I assume someone is searching for her former co-workers now.

And the co-workers of this woman working at another local restaurant. From the AL.com article above.
"He watched us girls quite openly," said [former waitress Victoria] Beverstock. "His eyes crawled over our shirts and our backsides. He was so open about it that I would try and handle his order as quickly as possible."
posted by chris24 at 4:21 PM on November 13 [2 favorites]


Do how many utter nightmare GOP pols do you reckon have this amount of dirt just sitting around in the open with people just kind of forgetting to report on it? It's got to be a few more. With Trump appointees Its probably even Moore likely.
posted by Artw at 4:23 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]


Hell, they should shoot a reenactment America's Most Wanted style and air that.

Can we get Kevin Spacey to play Roy Moore
posted by dhartung at 4:24 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]


@chrislhayes
Today's allegation against Moore is alleged to have happened in 1977. Leigh Corfman says he assaulted her in 1979. Around that same time two challenges to his law license were filed w the bar and dismissed.

In 1982, Moore left town for Texas then Australia.
posted by chris24 at 4:24 PM on November 13 [35 favorites]


What's the implication, that he finally molested one too many girls and was run out of town on rails ahead of the pitchforks?
posted by Justinian at 4:25 PM on November 13 [6 favorites]


Bet there's a corner of Australia with some weird looking Kangaroos.
posted by Artw at 4:31 PM on November 13 [9 favorites]


Well, it's certainly not normal for a district attorney to leave their job to go to another state, then to another country to work with livestock. I don't think it's a great idea to jump to conclusions about the particular reason but I am pretty confident that there was some interesting reason.
posted by Nerd of the North at 4:32 PM on November 13 [9 favorites]


Bet there's a corner of Australia with some weird looking Kangaroos.

Mooresupials?
posted by zakur at 4:32 PM on November 13 [32 favorites]


This excerpt from a Montgomery newspaper in 2002 about his time in Etowah County and Gadsden is all but shouting out how gross they felt about him.
posted by zombieflanders at 4:34 PM on November 13 [7 favorites]


Do how many utter nightmare GOP pols do you reckon have this amount of dirt just sitting around in the open with people just kind of forgetting to report on it?

My most conservative estimate is 90% of them.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:34 PM on November 13 [7 favorites]


Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish: Jeff Flake said the thing, via Cameron Joseph's twitter:

@JeffFlake: "If the choice is between @MooreSenate and a Democrat, a Democrat, no doubt." Says he'd vote for expulsion.


So I've read the other Republican rebukes and grasped their intention, and I'd also read (and forgotten) Flake's previous denouncement. Yet because this one specifically mentions the hated Democrats, it took me way too long to parse it correctly. So many other Republicans in various interviews have said literally the opposite that my inner interpreator was miscalibrated, and I was like "Huh? Jeff Flake has spoken against Trumpism, he wants desperately to be respectable, but now he's saying the Trumpist pedophile would be better than any… oh, wait, never mind."

zachlipton: @MEPFuller: "I would literally — if I were in Alabama — I would run to the polling place to vote for the Democrat." –Sen. Jeff Flake (R-Arizona)

I wrote the above, read more comments to that point, and had the same moment of misunderstanding. Not that I intend to praise Flake here, but when I read "R-" and "the Democrat" and "run to the polling place" my brain just can't assemble the pieces correctly. An "R" putting country over party (in the most elementary-level-ethics context possible) is one thing, but adding enthusiasm to the mix is just bewildering.

If a day ever comes that a Republican in power calls for Trump's impeachment, I swear my first response will be "Republicans saying impeach Hillary? Eh, what else is new"
posted by InTheYear2017 at 4:35 PM on November 13 [5 favorites]


What's the implication, that he finally molested one too many girls and was run out of town on rails ahead of the pitchforks?

I was thinking about this yesterday and I came to the grotendous conclusion that Australia is geographically closer to the areas of the world where child sex tourism is unfortunately rampant.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:36 PM on November 13 [30 favorites]


Oh god.
posted by Artw at 4:39 PM on November 13 [2 favorites]


"I don't know where the restaurant is or was"

So, this is, of all things, what might kill him. Old Hickory House is a small southern chain founded in 1953, which did most of its expanding in the 50s and 60s and started fading in the 80s. However, this branch survived at least until 2011 and sat on one of the two major highways that run through Gadsden. Roy Moore was born in Gadsden, and it's a town of 30K people. I grew up in a town 3 times that size, and I can tell you that in 1977 the available number of sit-down restaurants was not high even there.

I would estimate the odds that he did not know of the existence of the restaurant is about 0 percent, even without the signed and dated yearbook, and the odds that someone has a photo of him posing with people at the restaurant, or a newspaper article about him attending a pancake breakfast or fundraiser there, is at least 50 percent and probably higher.
posted by tavella at 4:46 PM on November 13 [29 favorites]


From a Saki short story where two characters are discussing the sudden departure of a neer-do-well:
"At any rate," she snapped, "now she can't marry Wratislav."

"She couldn't in any case," said the Grafin; "he left suddenly for abroad last night."

"For abroad! Where?"

"For Mexico, I believe."

"Mexico! But what for? Why Mexico?"

"The English have a proverb, 'Conscience makes cowboys of us all.' "

"I didn't know Wratislav had a conscience."

"My dear Sophie, he hasn't. It's other people's consciences that send one abroad in a hurry."
posted by Nerd of the North at 4:46 PM on November 13 [25 favorites]


I was thinking about this yesterday and I came to the grotendous conclusion that Australia is geographically closer to the areas of the world where child sex tourism is unfortunately rampant.

Yes, compared to Alabama, but Sydney to Bangkok or vicinity is a 9.5 hour flight. Having lived in Hong Kong for a couple years and traveled/worked a bunch in Thailand, Cambodia and Nepal, including for NGOs working to stop sex trafficking, you hear and know about sketchy westerners taking advantage of the area. But if that was your goal, HK, Bangkok, Phnom Penh or the like would probably be your choice. And I feel dirty even typing that.
posted by chris24 at 4:46 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]


In 1982, Moore left town for Texas then Australia “Australia”.
posted by acb at 4:48 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]


Australia is the closest country where they primarily speak English.
posted by elsietheeel at 4:51 PM on November 13


Yes, compared to Alabama, but Sydney to Bangkok or vicinity is a 9.5 hour flight.

OTOH, didn't he say he worked as a cowboy in Australia? Not a lot of cowboy work in Sydney, if I recall correctly, but there is a lot in the far north of Queensland and the Northern Territory. If one were moving to Australia with a view to frequently venturing incognito to south-east Asia, and had cultivated a “cowboy” cover story, somewhere in the vicinity of Darwin would probably make more sense.
posted by acb at 4:52 PM on November 13


They're really to do anything to keep the seat.

@AriFleischer
The ideal political solution:

1) Moore drops out.
2) AL GOP Sen Richard Shelby resigns and announces he will be write-in candidate.
3) Shelby wins back the Senate seat.
4) AL GOP Gov. appoints a GOP replacement for Shelby.
posted by chris24 at 4:52 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]


Even aside from poffin boffin's grotendous possibility, just on the grounds Moore was basically hiding out, it seems important to know if we have any good record of the time in Australia. Like, who knew him there besides his employer? Did he have family with him?
posted by InTheYear2017 at 4:55 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]


The ideal political solution:

That seems like an insanely risky strategy, given how hard it is to mount a write-in campaign. In most states, writing "Shelbey" would invalidate your ballot.

Meanwhile, Moore would remain on the ballot -- votes for him would be unavailable to Shelby, whether stubborn or low-information. And Jones is a strong candidate with good name recognition and a WASPy name.

If Shelby loses, you've given the Democrats one seat and set up maybe a Shelby vs. Sessions death match if the latter is forced from office or fired by Trump.
posted by msalt at 4:58 PM on November 13 [7 favorites]


Australia is the closest country where they primarily speak English.

Singapore and Hong Kong are former British colonies. English is absolutely not an issue there. Nor is it really in Bangkok.


somewhere in the vicinity of Darwin would probably make more sense.

Darwin to HK is still 9.5 hours. And no direct flights to Bangkok so your quickest connection there is 16 hours.

Look, I despise him and wouldn't put it past him. I just think it's more likely he was running away from something than moving somewhere to be closer to that particular thing.
posted by chris24 at 4:58 PM on November 13 [16 favorites]


IIRC the only sourcing for “Moore went to Australia” is Moore’s own autobiography.

He didn’t go to Australia to be a cowboy. That’s the kind of lie idiots tell to cover up something shameful. My guess at the time the original article came out (no way I’m looking for that link on my poor phone tho) was that he was in jail somewhere in Texas, back in the analog era, and no one ever checked.

But he definitely wasn’t in goddamn Australia. $100 says he came up with the cover story when Crocodile Dundee came out.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:59 PM on November 13 [22 favorites]


Like, who knew him there besides his employer? Did he have family with him?

i mean, does this alleged employer even exist? or is the guy's name Moy Roore residing at 123 Realstreet Lane
posted by poffin boffin at 5:00 PM on November 13 [5 favorites]


Good luck convincing a sitting US Senator to resign to help out a child molester. Especially a Republican in Alabama who essentially has a lifetime appointment, you know, unless he's a child molester. Part of me still can't believe Jeff Sessions actually resigned to be US Attorney, but he really does hate black people enough that for him that was an upgrade for the real reason he went into politics. For almost anyone else, United States Senator is the best job you can have, period, short of President. Shelby isn't giving that up for Roy Moore. This isn't Fantasy Senate League.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:01 PM on November 13 [10 favorites]


Singapore and Hong Kong are former British colonies. English is absolutely not an issue there. Nor it it really in Bangkok.

Yes, but think more like a racist...
posted by elsietheeel at 5:03 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]


Until recently, I didn’t think it possible that I could underestimate how big a piece of shit Roy Moore was.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:05 PM on November 13 [13 favorites]


There is a new Doug Jones ad. It talks about Gettysburg, Little Round Top and Maine.

It is completely genius. I mean, just hit-it-out-of-the-park genius. It preys ruthlessly on the Lost Cause sentiments, and ties in Maine, which the Alabamian Deep South still sees as a little island of rationality in the lunacy of the Yankee North, mostly because Hannity and Rush tells them so.

This ad hits so hard below the belt, while still remaining on the side of the Angels, because this is the guy who eviscerated the KKK in his state, and signifying makers were there for us as well. He was all like, if you vote for me, Ken Burns will say nice things about our state while Ashokan Farewell plays in the background!

Fuck Judge Moore. Doug Jones is worthy of attention as a savage and savvy politician. He took the high road, and refused to rub the electorate's nose into the child-raper's nomination, and made the election about Alabama's dignity. Which by default makes it alllll about Judge Death I mean Moore, and the humiliation of actually electing him now.
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:07 PM on November 13 [38 favorites]


i've never actually been surprised at the disgusting things done by men in power; lately the real dramatic gasping shocks have come from the eager willingness with which so many of them have freely and publicly admitted to the disgusting things, without shame or remorse.
posted by poffin boffin at 5:07 PM on November 13 [12 favorites]


I'm glad Jones has good ads because his campaign emails were the flashback to the summer of 2016 that my inbox did not ask for. Unsubscribed after about 4 hours and 80 billion Re: AWFUL NEWS WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE emails.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:20 PM on November 13 [6 favorites]


I wonder if "Australia" was actually a religious retreat or a sex clinic. I think his sex crimes might have been ratcheting up to the point where he was scaring himself.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:21 PM on November 13 [5 favorites]


Alabama congressman Mo Brooks going down with the ship.
There are major issues facing the United States of America, deficit and debt that can lead to insolvency and bankruptcy, funding for national security, border security, abortion, appointment of supreme court justices— Doug Jones will vote wrong on each of those issues, Roy Moore will vote right on each of those issues. That's why I am voting for Roy Moore.
posted by chris24 at 5:24 PM on November 13 [5 favorites]


Secret Life of Gravy I wondered this myself, and thought about trying to find out if there was a well-known rehab something in Australia at that time but it was just too general & the area in question was too large.
posted by cybertaur1 at 5:25 PM on November 13


There is a new Doug Jones ad. It talks about Gettysburg, Little Round Top and Maine.

Best line: “There’s honor in compromise and civility.”

Southerners take their manners Seriously. Framing Roy Moore not as a culture warrior but as rude and disrespectful is a particularly clever angle.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:26 PM on November 13 [11 favorites]


Roy Moore's stay in Australia was with Colin Rolfe, a dominionist with a ranch near Emerald, Queensland, Australia. Which today has a population of just over 15,000.
posted by MrVisible at 5:27 PM on November 13 [9 favorites]


deficit and debt that can lead to insolvency and bankruptcy

"Which is why our budget will add several trillion to the national debt!" /throws glitter bomb and flees in the ensuing chaos
posted by Celsius1414 at 5:27 PM on November 13 [6 favorites]


The Republican National Committee Hasn't Yet Dumped Roy Moore
One after another, prominent Republicans are bailing on Roy Moore.

They’re calling for the Alabama Senate candidate, who’s accused of behaving inappropriately years ago with teenage girls, to withdraw from the race or be barred from serving if he wins.

But the Republican National Committee remains in Moore’s corner — at least for now.

About a dozen national party staffers are on the ground in Alabama, handling field organizing duties for next month’s special election between Moore and Democratic nominee Doug Jones, an RNC official told BuzzFeed News. A spokesperson declined to comment when asked if the RNC’s investment was being reevaluated in light of another woman coming forward to accuse Moore of sexually assaulting her in 1977, when she was 16. She is the second woman in recent days to say Moore initiated an unwanted sexual encounter when she was a teen. Moore has denied any wrongdoing.
posted by chris24 at 5:34 PM on November 13 [4 favorites]


Darwin to HK is still 9.5 hours. And no direct flights to Bangkok so your quickest connection there is 16 hours.

Could Indonesia have sufficed? It is a lot closer; one could get there by boat or light plane.
posted by acb at 5:37 PM on November 13


Could Indonesia have sufficed? It is a lot closer; one could get there by boat or light plane.

Bali is about a 3 hour flight from Darwin. 4 from Perth, 6.5 from Sydney. Could be.
posted by chris24 at 5:44 PM on November 13


From the Atlantic article, he was already in Australia at the time, though:
One day, in the small town of Emerald, Queensland, he struck up a conversation with a local rancher, Colin Rolfe, who improbably shared Moore's passions for both Christianity and poetry. Short on money and with nowhere to go, he accepted an invitation to visit Rolfe's 42,000-acre ranch, and wound up living with the family and working as a cowboy for the better part of a year.
So it's not that he moved there to take a job on a cattle ranch, he was just bumming around Australia, penniless. At the age of 35 or so. After a career of at least 5 or so years as a DA. The whole sequence is... weird to say the least. It's possible that it was driven by internal crisis, not legal hazard -- he did return to Gadsden within 3 or so years -- but it's strange.
posted by tavella at 5:48 PM on November 13 [22 favorites]


Er, could we maybe not go on wild flights of fancy about southeast Asian sex tourism? It's gross and somewhat stereotypical, and it's not like there's not plenty of confirmed creepery about Moore.
posted by jackbishop at 5:50 PM on November 13 [51 favorites]


Note that he served as an MP in Da Nang about a decade before, so he was almost certainly at least *aware* of the opportunities for underage sex tourism in SE Asia at the time.
posted by tavella at 5:53 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]


[Until some actual info comes out, maybe let's pause the hypothetical where-was-he-probably-going-from-Australia stuff.]
posted by LobsterMitten at 6:04 PM on November 13 [20 favorites]


I wonder if "Australia" was actually a religious retreat or a sex clinic.

"I was dead at the time! I was on the moon! With Steve!"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:06 PM on November 13 [5 favorites]


I wonder if Cowboy Moore came here on a working visa? They probably weren't too hard to get, for Americans in the 1980s, but it doesn't sound like he had made plans before he came.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:16 PM on November 13


What was Australia's extradition policy at the time?
posted by rhizome at 6:32 PM on November 13 [2 favorites]


Australia is the new Appalachian Trail.
posted by diogenes at 6:34 PM on November 13 [22 favorites]


The ideal political solution:

1) Moore drops out.
2) AL GOP Sen Richard Shelby resigns and announces he will be write-in candidate.
3) Shelby wins back the Senate seat.
4) AL GOP Gov. appoints a GOP replacement for Shelby.


1) If your party nominates a complete fucking bastard, you don't get to win the seat.

FTFY
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:34 PM on November 13 [9 favorites]


I don't know where the restaurant is or was.

These aren't very good lies.


They certainly aren't. This is a town of (now) 35,000 people; everybody knows where all the damn restaurants are.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:40 PM on November 13 [19 favorites]


You're just a child and I am the district attorney

so help me god, the next time somebody tries to make a big thing out of knowing the word "ephebophilia" and argue that it's totally different when the scare-quoted "children" are 16, or 15, or 14, or 13, or 12, sure still wrong if you insist but totally different from when they're children children, where is your respect for the glorious autonomy of teen sexuality

next time that happens, and it will be soon because that way of thinking about girls in particular is a plague upon the earth, I swear I will quote this at the speaker until he has a seizure or an apoplexy of some kind and then I will keep quoting it. motivation of the molester matters so much? his own perception of his victim defines the level of his pathology? OK! here's their goddamn motivation. out of his own mouth.

You're just a child


that's what he saw, that's what he wanted, that's why he did it, and that's why he still thinks he'll get away with it. You're just a child.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:59 PM on November 13 [54 favorites]


FWIW, that "pastors for Moore" letter looks like it pre-dated the primary, and was re-purposed without their knowledge.
posted by Chrysostom at 7:01 PM on November 13 [13 favorites]


that's what he saw, that's what he wanted, that's why he did it, and that's why he still thinks he'll get away with it. You're just a child.

It's a lot more complex than that, but we can agree that he certainly wanted someone who was regarded as a child and not respected or powerful at the level an adult (adult man, that is) would be.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:11 PM on November 13 [2 favorites]


Oh! The Doug Jones ad in particular, here ya go - and he has an electrifying slogan at the end that might win the whole magilla on its own. Southern pride, put to excellent use.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:21 PM on November 13


Reporters need to start calling every name on that letter for statements.

After the letter was published on AL.com, Tijuanna Adetunji of the Fresh Anointing House of Worship in Montgomery, said she was not contacted about the letter and did not give permission for her name to be used.
posted by EarBucket at 7:23 PM on November 13 [38 favorites]


The Hill: Strange: 'Highly unlikely' I'll run a write-in campaign against Moore
posted by Chrysostom at 7:49 PM on November 13 [3 favorites]


Why Australia? It's as far away from Alabama as you can get on Planet Earth and still be on dry land.
posted by TwoToneRow at 8:03 PM on November 13 [1 favorite]


The Atlantic article that MrVisible linked to above explains that Moore had (apparently) resigned his deputy district attorney job to run for circuit county judge, was thoroughly defeated, and as he had pissed off a lot of people in town, he moved to Texas and later travelled to Australia. Not so mysterious.

Then there's this, what he learned while attending West Point: "I soon learned that one of the academy's tools for leadership training was intimidation" and the fact that, as an officer in Vietnam, he slept on a pile of sandbags so that he couldn't be fragged with a grenade under his bed while he slept.

Guys, I think I've figured out why he still has Ted Cruz's support: they are kindred spirits.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 8:14 PM on November 13 [5 favorites]


grotendous

Is that . . yours? It's . . . perfect.
posted by petebest at 8:14 PM on November 13 [2 favorites]


he slept on a pile of sandbags so that he couldn't be fragged with a grenade under his bed while he slept.

He...he does know grenades work from all sides, right?
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:31 PM on November 13 [10 favorites]


grotendous

Is that . . yours? It's . . . perfect.


i'm pretty sure i first saw it in snow crash
posted by poffin boffin at 8:43 PM on November 13 [6 favorites]


Some trickster registered RoyMooreGOP.com and made it a page for donating to sexual abuse charities.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:56 PM on November 13 [38 favorites]


New Morning Consult poll: 60% of Americans believe the charges against Roy Moore are credible, including Republicans by 49-30.

72% of Democrats say Moore should drop out, as did 56% of independents and half of Republicans.

---

@LaurenWalshTV (local ABC reporter)
I asked Moore if he's prepared to testify under oath, as Beverly Young Nelson is prepared to do. He walked away & didn't answer my question.
posted by chris24 at 4:14 AM on November 14 [38 favorites]


The probably-bot Twitter account behind the bullshit tweet claiming WaPo was paying the women and the associated rightwing conspiracy theories deleted all their tweets, and then deleted their account.
posted by chris24 at 4:35 AM on November 14 [8 favorites]


While Hannity has forgiven Keurig, he's still freaking out about the boycotts. Last night he did a feature revealing how Angelo Carusone of "leftwing hate group MMFA" - who has been helping organize the advertiser boycotts - is anti-gay and anti-semitic.

Angelo is gay and married to a Jewish man.
posted by chris24 at 5:00 AM on November 14 [19 favorites]


The AL.com editorial board (most of the big newspapers in AL):

Our view: Roy Moore grossly unfit for office
Roy Moore simply cannot be a U.S. Senator. Even if his party and many of its adherents still think it possible, it is unthinkable -- for his state, and his country. [...]

It's time that he and his party read the writing on the wall: His candidacy is over. His true character has been revealed. It's time for the GOP to remove its official support.

And since he and his party can't assure it, the voters of Alabama must.
posted by chris24 at 5:33 AM on November 14 [28 favorites]


It's time that he and his party read the writing on the wall: His candidacy is over. His true character has been revealed. It's time for the GOP to remove its official support.

How much that means in the Trumpian age is an open question.
posted by acb at 5:50 AM on November 14 [2 favorites]


Cook Political moves AL Sen to Tossup.
posted by Chrysostom at 5:54 AM on November 14 [13 favorites]


A Luther Strange or other "respectable republican" write in campaign would be a big tangible step toward an actual splintering of the GOP / creation of a new party. For many reasons, I hope it happens.
posted by saturday_morning at 5:55 AM on November 14 [13 favorites]


Did AL.com have a stance on Trump in the 2016 election?
posted by lovelyzoo at 6:22 AM on November 14 [1 favorite]


> Did AL.com have a stance on Trump in the 2016 election?

Yes, they endorsed Clinton, calling Trump "frighteningly unfit to be president" and that his election "would be a disaster for America and the world."
posted by papercrane at 6:34 AM on November 14 [11 favorites]


Alabama conservatives: We simply cannot understand how...

Roy Moore: This Ten Commandments monument supersedes all so-called "law" and "court orders."

Alabama conservatives: Sorry, I was interrupted. We simply cannot believe how...

Roy Moore: I hereby order Alabama state agencies to defy this Supreme Court ruling and act in accordance with God's will instead.

Alabama conservatives: ...how anyone could possibly believe that Judge Roy Moore would ever put his own personal wants and desires above the law.

World: Did you hear him saying exactly that, in his own words, on multiple occasi--

Alabama conservatives: FAKE NEWS! SOROS! JESUS!
posted by delfin at 6:39 AM on November 14 [19 favorites]




Sean Hannity Has Lost 11 Sponsors Since Remarks Defending Roy Moore
That reminds me, I need to call USAA and ask them what the hell they're thinking.. I'm sure they're getting pro-Hannity calls as well, I want them to know that not all of their members approve..

[On edit: It appears that they had dropped Hannity advertising previously, then apparently reinstated it in May after a calling campaign from right-wing customers. In my opinion it's time to push back.]
posted by Nerd of the North at 8:39 AM on November 14 [13 favorites]


Parker Malloy updates the Gadsden Flag for 2017.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:42 AM on November 14 [10 favorites]


USAA is a sponsor? I'd love to call them up & give them a piece of my mind. Is there a list out there of other sponsors?
posted by cybertaur1 at 8:43 AM on November 14 [2 favorites]


USAA is a sponsor? I'd love to call them up & give them a piece of my mind. Is there a list out there of other sponsors?
For your convenience, try this MediaMatters link (found via this response earlier in this thread, put your favorites there..)
posted by Nerd of the North at 8:50 AM on November 14


Just called them up! Felt great. The woman on the phone didn't have any idea what I was talking about, when I asked why USAA was a sponsor of Hannity she thought I was talking about the incident from May or whatever when they first pulled sponsorship and she wasn't aware they had reinstated their sponsorship of the show. She also didn't know who Roy Moore was so I went through that too.

She said that she'd make sure the feedback got to the right places & was pretty nice about all of it, said that she'd expect something by the end of the week.
posted by cybertaur1 at 9:02 AM on November 14 [17 favorites]


Parker Malloy updates the Gadsden Flag for 2017.

i was waiting for this and i was not disappointed
internet, you never let me down (well, when it comes to dank meme remixes, otherwise you pretty much let me down all the time)
posted by halation at 9:37 AM on November 14 [3 favorites]


Looks like Roy Moore faked the endorsement letter from the pastors by doctoring a previous letter.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:55 AM on November 14 [38 favorites]


Hmmm maybe Roy Moore should refresh his memory of what the 10 commandments say. There is definitely something about not bearing false witness. I think Roy Moore needs to erect a 10 foot tall granite replica of the 10 commandments in his living room since he has so much trouble remembering.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:01 AM on November 14 [19 favorites]


Since some of those pastors are now distancing themselves from Moore, does that mean a bunch of Republicans are going to take to twitter to angrily burn their bibles?
posted by duffell at 10:02 AM on November 14 [7 favorites]


Looks like Roy Moore faked the endorsement letter from the pastors by doctoring a previous letter.

Is his next move to claim that he's mentally about 12 years old so his predatory behavior isn't inappropriate? Because now he's on the level of the old "forging the report card so your parents don't get mad" trick that never worked.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:11 AM on November 14 [7 favorites]


As far as I can tell, there three different forms of deceit committed by Moore circulating the letter -- it was from the primary, it's been altered since then, and at least one of the religious leaders listed says they never heard of it before.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 10:22 AM on November 14 [14 favorites]


CBS: Paul Ryan calls for Moore to drop out.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:39 AM on November 14 [15 favorites]


Looks like Roy Moore faked the endorsement letter from the pastors by doctoring a previous letter.

Helped by his wife, no less, who also claimed on Facebook that the restaurant didn't exist. Unfortunately for them, somebody doing actual, shoe-leather journalism dug up the physical records of Gadsden's city directory and found that they're lying.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:54 AM on November 14 [17 favorites]


TPM: Alabama GOP to meet later this week to decide whether to pull their nomination. Moore can't be removed from the ballot, but the party could back a write-in. What would happen if Moore won without the party's backing is less clear.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:56 AM on November 14 [6 favorites]


I suspect, if nothing else, Moore winning without the party’s backing gives cover for an expulsion vote in the Senate. But it’s a long way from here to there right now.
posted by nubs at 11:01 AM on November 14


Please please please let that meeting be televised live.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:02 AM on November 14 [2 favorites]


So to be clear, Senate expulsion involves a 2/3 majority vote but not, like, a trial or something, right? Do they have to name a cause?
posted by InTheYear2017 at 11:03 AM on November 14


> Do they have to name a cause?

No trial. The current rules of the senate are after the Senate Ethics Committee has considered the matter and issued a recommendation they would have a vote.
posted by papercrane at 11:09 AM on November 14 [2 favorites]


Do they have to name a cause?

To who?

Expulsion from the Senate is an entirely political affair, not a criminal trial. If 2/3 of Senators vote to expel a Senator because he's bald they can do it. They might pay an electoral price, but that's the only real limitation.

Same with impeachment of any sort. It is a political, not a criminal, matter. If 2/3 of Senators vote, for no reason other than sheer spite, to remove a President from office, that's what happens. Again, there'd likely be electoral hell to pay if they did, but legally the Senate doesn't need a crime to impeach someone.
posted by sotonohito at 11:22 AM on November 14 [2 favorites]


Last night he did a feature revealing how Angelo Carusone of "leftwing hate group MMFA" - who has been helping organize the advertiser boycotts - is anti-gay and anti-semitic

so uh. why would he and his followers demonize someone for being exactly like them.

i mean i know the answer is because he will express literally any viewpoint for money and all of them are shit smeared cretins but like. the mental disconnect is stark and alarming.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:28 AM on November 14 [3 favorites]


so uh. why would he and his followers demonize someone for being exactly like them.

Oh god, my husband was asking this same question and I was trying to point out that the Right always tries to prove that the Left is just as bad if not worse on every failing by their leaders. Plus bonus points for the Left being hypocritical. My husband wasn't buying any of my arguments and finally we had to leave it at, "Honey, you just don't have the mindset of a Far Right wingnut."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:41 AM on November 14 [2 favorites]


Interesting! So it was a different restaurant with (almost) the same name as the chain. And a location even closer to the center of town. So the point still stands: it's highly unlikely that as a Gadsden native in 1977 in a town of 30K that he wouldn't have known of it.
posted by tavella at 11:42 AM on November 14 [1 favorite]


This is the only thing we ever argue about at my house anymore, "What the hell is the Right thinking?" in which we try to interpret what the hell the Republicans are doing and thinking.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:44 AM on November 14 [1 favorite]


“Right thinking is wrong thinking” is a good rule of thumb—
Given the choice, they will do something dumb.
Dante’s Inferno sinners are their heroes thus far,
But once more with feeling: IOKIYAR
posted by Celsius1414 at 12:07 PM on November 14 [1 favorite]


Please please please let that meeting be televised live.

THE REVULSION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED
posted by msalt at 12:35 PM on November 14 [3 favorites]




Yes...it is surprising that he continues to double down.
posted by mmascolino at 1:01 PM on November 14


That's some boilerplate Bannon right there. Are those two "journalists" from Breitbart in Alabama to investigate, or to do PR?
posted by Yowser at 1:01 PM on November 14 [1 favorite]


@MooreSenate: Alabamians will not be fooled by this #InsideHitJob. Mitch McConnell's days as Majority Leader are coming to an end very soon. The fight has just begun.

Keep right on diggin', dumbfuck!
posted by CommonSense at 1:03 PM on November 14 [3 favorites]


Dumbfucks, surely.
posted by duffell at 1:10 PM on November 14 [1 favorite]


I have a distinct feeling that Moore means what he's saying and isn't going anywhere. His career on the state Supreme Court makes it clear that he has no sense of shame that would drive him to abandon the campaign in order to save face; he clearly hates Mitch McConnell enough that he'd never drop out just to make life easier for the party establishment; and he's so toxic on the national stage that nobody'd be able to bribe him to drop out without catching hell themselves.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:11 PM on November 14 [9 favorites]


this could get ugly, if it weren't already as ugly as possible

Oh, my dear, if 2016-17 has taught us anything, it's that there is always, ALWAYS even more, worse ugly right around the corner.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:15 PM on November 14 [14 favorites]


I mean, I'm half-expecting the Charlottesville Nazis and a bunch of Russian spies to show up in Alabama to back up the embattled molesters and enablers of Gadsden.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:25 PM on November 14 [4 favorites]


Since some of those pastors are now distancing themselves from Moore, does that mean a bunch of Republicans are going to take to twitter to angrily burn their bibles?

They are just going to stomp their bible flavored K-cups.
posted by srboisvert at 1:28 PM on November 14 [2 favorites]


Dumbfucks, surely.

Dumbsfuck.
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:34 PM on November 14 [13 favorites]


Moore straight up trolling Mitch now.

@MooreSenate
McConnell at the Bat

Republican Primary 8/15: STRIKE 1
Republican Runoff 9/26: STRIKE 2
General Election 12/12: TBD

3 STRIKES AND YOU'RE OUT, MITCH. #ALSEN
posted by chris24 at 1:37 PM on November 14 [5 favorites]


Yeah, people always forget about the lesser-known rules of baseball, like when you want to play for a team but they say "no, you're a child molester, GTFO", but you have a snappy comeback on Twitter, so they're forced to put you in the starting lineup.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:41 PM on November 14 [20 favorites]


A McConnell/Moore feud is an interesting thing, Moore is like an avatar for Trumpism but it certainly feels like McConnell can't be seen to back down from Moore's threats if he wants to keep power, so if there's any real, tangible overt Republican on Republican fighting to be had these days I think this has potential to be it - either campaigning actively against Moore leading to him losing, or expelling him if he wins. But that avatar of Trump thing would dramatically raise the stakes because it would be as if McConnell made an aggressive power move against Trump himself (by moving against his base's wishes). That would have some very serious effects on the existing but mostly civil divisions within the party. It's one thing for Bannon to be all "ooooh I'm gonna get you, McConnell!" and fall flat on his face, but like the biggest sin of a Republican's adversary is having the temerity to stand up for themselves, so if McConnell takes real action and that dynamic starts playing out internally... fun times.

McConnell could just roll over like he does for Trump, but I think it looks bad for him if he backs down to some awful loudmouth freshman in the rules of the whole stupid toxic masculinity power politics game, so I don't know if he can. I think he's hoping for a natural Moore loss, but if that's not in the cards and he has to put his thumb on the scales he's got a big dilemma.
posted by jason_steakums at 1:42 PM on November 14 [7 favorites]


I wish to shoot all of these people into the center of the sun immediately, but if they want to waste their time and political capital infighting over gross shit that makes for terrible headlines, by all means, proceed.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:42 PM on November 14 [18 favorites]


I have a distinct feeling that Moore means what he's saying and isn't going anywhere.

Sure, I agree. What motivation does he have to leave the race? He hates Trump and the Republican party and just thinks he's a thing unto himself. Nobody can make him quit. It's not like he has a career left after this (except on Fox News and as a crazy-church guest speaker) either way.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:44 PM on November 14 [3 favorites]


Acting like an asshole maniac as he is now probably builds his resume for those gigs too.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:44 PM on November 14 [4 favorites]


A McConnell/Moore feud is an interesting thing, Moore is like an avatar for Trumpism

And actually backed by Bannon - whose goal is to destroy the "establishment" republicans and get much more strident conservatives elected. He and Moore are two racist peas in pedophilia pod.

So far, he's managed the first. Despite lots of energy from the maga-hat pedo-frog crowd, he hasn't managed many successes. I'm sure he'll have some. His main talent seems to be in getting billionaires to fund a shitty white supremacist propaganda website and he hasn't shown much other acumen.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 1:54 PM on November 14 [3 favorites]


Yeah he's so far failed to even rise to the level of McConnell's attention because he can't get anyone elected. But the moment McConnell actually has to take action to swat down a challenge, oh boy, deplorables will go into rage mode against the party and I don't know how you keep things together.
posted by jason_steakums at 1:57 PM on November 14




@WarOnDumb
Moore met Kayla when he was 38 and she was 23. He recalled her catching his eye "many years" earlier at a dance recital. Do the math.

AL.com: When did Roy Moore meet his wife?
In his book, Roy Moore said he had seen Kayla "many" years earlier, although it doesn't specify how old she was when she first caught his eye. Women who spoke to the Washington Post said Moore asked them for dates in the late 1970s. Moore left Alabama in 1983, traveled to Texas and Australia, and returned in 1984, around the same time he met Kayla Kisor at the church Christmas party.

"Many years before, I had attended a dance recital at Gadsden State Junior College," Roy Moore wrote. "I remembered one of the special dances performed by a young woman whose first and last names began with the letter 'K.' It was something I had never forgotten. Could that young woman have been Kayla Kisor? Anxious to meet her, I began with the line, 'Haven't we met somewhere before?'"
posted by chris24 at 2:11 PM on November 14 [3 favorites]


When Roy Moore Was Attracted To Inappropriately Aged Girls He Was A DEMOCRAT

This...this is satire, right? Please?
posted by saturday_morning at 2:12 PM on November 14 [6 favorites]


I mean, it's factually correct than he ran as a Democrat at that time, I guess? He very much still seems to have been a right wing weirdo.
posted by Artw at 2:18 PM on November 14 [2 favorites]


>> When Roy Moore Was Attracted To Inappropriately Aged Girls He Was A DEMOCRAT
> This...this is satire, right? Please?


In 2017, if you have to ask, then you know that the answer is No...
Did you know that before 1992 when a lot of this was going on that Judge Moore was a Democrat? You didn’t know that? How about all these people now saying, “Oh, yeah, yeah, everybody here knew about Judge Moore. Oh-ho-ho, yeah, good old boy we’ve known about Judge Moore for a long time.” While he was a Democrat. Nobody said a word. When he supposedly was attracted to inappropriately aged girls, he was a Democrat. For what it’s worth.
It's the "For what it's worth" that really makes it.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:18 PM on November 14 [8 favorites]


I am unsure what it is worth.
posted by Artw at 2:21 PM on November 14 [5 favorites]


When Steve Bannon doubts your story...

Dailybeast: Steve Bannon And Allies Have Second Thoughts About Roy Moore, Sources Say
Donald Trump’s former chief strategist Steve Bannon is keeping the door open to ditching Roy Moore as the sexual-assault allegations against the Alabama Republican Senate candidate continue to pile up.

Publicly, the Trump confidant and Breitbart chairman has stood behind Moore, who is now accused of attempted rape of a 16-year-old girl. Bannon has also railed against what he and his allies dub “fake news” and the GOP establishment for trying to push Moore out of the race.

“This is just another desperate attempt by Mitch McConnell to keep power, and it’s not going to work,” Bannon said on Monday’s episode of Breitbart News Daily. “You know, people in Alabama see through this. The good folks of Alabama are going to be able to weigh and measure this…This is an orchestrated hit from the Uniparty.”

But over the past few days, Bannon has begun privately taking the temperature of those in his inner circle to see what they think of the Moore allegations and to get their sense of how to proceed, according to four knowledgeable sources. Late last week, the Breitbart chairman said, “I will put him in a grave myself,” if he determines that Moore was lying to him about the numerous accusations, a source close to Bannon relayed. [...]

Several of Bannon’s most trusted allies have already told him that it would be “insane,” as one put it, to believe at this point that the Moore accusations are baseless. They have also warned that the time is rapidly approaching when he would have to disavow Moore before it appeared as though he was simply caving to political pressure. (Critics of Bannon, of course, argue he should never have backed Moore in the first place.)
posted by chris24 at 2:23 PM on November 14 [9 favorites]


This is known as a CODE MILO.
posted by Artw at 2:38 PM on November 14 [9 favorites]


When Roy Moore Was Attracted To Inappropriately Aged Girls He Was A DEMOCRAT
And I'll bet they're all wishing he was a Democrat now, too.

And actually backed by Bannon - whose goal is to destroy the "establishment" republicans everything.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:40 PM on November 14 [2 favorites]


WKRG, Curious Robocall Seeks ‘Damaging’ Information on Moore
Another development involving the U.S. Senate race in Alabama. At least one person in our viewing area received a robocall seeking more damaging information about Roy Moore. Here is the text of that voicemail message received by Pastor Al Moore in Creola.

“Hi, this is Bernie Bernstein, I’m a reporter for the Washington Post calling to find out if anyone at this address is a female between the ages of 54 to 57 years old willing to make damaging remarks about candidate Roy Moore for a reward of between $5000 and $7000 dollars. We will not be fully investigating these claims however we will make a written report. I can be reached by email at [email protected], thank you.”
How does this story continue to get worse every day? And Bernie Bernstein? Oy.
posted by zachlipton at 2:42 PM on November 14 [30 favorites]


I am unsure what it is worth.

Trial balloon for how to thread the needle (take THAT, metaphors) of Bannon Has Second Thoughts, various conservofigures awkwardly shuffling around mumbling at each other "are we denouncing now? wait, yes? you first?" etc. If they can successfully turn on him and spin it as "this disgusting pervert DEMOCRAT who tried to INFILTRATE us couldn't fool REAL AMERICANS."

What that's worth is all in the heavy lifting "if they can" is doing. Part of the ongoing Interesting Times disintegration is inevitably going to be Rush and Bannon et al finding out they're no more in control of this unleashed beast than yonder McConnel is. I suspect they have a dim awareness of that, thus the casting about for a spin.
posted by Drastic at 2:43 PM on November 14 [2 favorites]




I'm shocked that the news outlet of choice for 8Chan supports pedophilia.
posted by Yowser at 2:46 PM on November 14


@politicoalex: BREAKING: RNC withdraws support for Roy Moore. Story tk...

The RNC pulled out of the joint fundraising campaign
posted by zachlipton at 2:48 PM on November 14 [15 favorites]


*clears throat*

@DavidKlion: Bernie Bernstein would have won
posted by zachlipton at 3:01 PM on November 14 [14 favorites]


This week's trend: "GOP FOR JONES" signs.
posted by Chrysostom at 3:08 PM on November 14 [6 favorites]


It's true, I started my local chapter of Hirsute Gay Men for Bernie during the 2016 election, although you may remember us better from our nickname, the Bernie Bernstein Bears
posted by zombieflanders at 3:09 PM on November 14 [29 favorites]


Umm, I very clearly remember seeing signs that said "Bernie Bernstain Bears." What the hell?
posted by lord_wolf at 3:14 PM on November 14 [23 favorites]


Umm, I very clearly remember seeing signs that said "Bernie Bernstain Bears." What the hell?

posted by lord_wolf at 3:14 PM on November 14 [3 favorites +] [!]


This was the moment Ashley Feinberg set out on her latest forensic investigation, tying Rod Rosenstein to the MeFi handle lord_wolf
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 3:21 PM on November 14 [2 favorites]


Hi, this is Bernie Bernstein, I’m a reporter for the Washington Post calling to find out if anyone at this address is a female between the ages of 54 to 57 years old willing to make damaging remarks about candidate Roy Moore for a reward of between $5000 and $7000 dollars.

Jesus Christ, they can't even do ratfucking halfway competently.

[Bannon's] main talent seems to be in getting billionaires to fund a shitty white supremacist propaganda website and he hasn't shown much other acumen.

You know, I hadn't really considered that the Mercers and Kochs and whoever cannot possibly be enjoying the Moore debacle. Mercer especially has to be happy he decided to skitter farther into the shadows like a cockroach the other week.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:24 PM on November 14 [1 favorite]


This was the moment Ashley Feinberg set out on her latest forensic investigation, tying Rod Rosenstein to the MeFi handle lord_wolf

Ahem, I believe it's Rosenstain
posted by Existential Dread at 3:25 PM on November 14 [5 favorites]


Hi, this is Bernie Bernstein, I’m a reporter for the Washington Post calling to find out if anyone at this address is a female between the ages of 54 to 57 years old willing to make damaging remarks about candidate Roy Moore for a reward of between $5000 and $7000 dollars.

Jesus Christ, they can't even do ratfucking halfway competently.


A non-zero portion of the Republican base thinks that Charlottesville was a false flag operation with agitators paid by George Soros. This isn't a stretch for those people.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 3:29 PM on November 14 [18 favorites]


Yes...it is surprising that he continues to double down.

Not Giving An Inch is Roy Moore's brand. Even if it's not his nature -- doubtful -- his political career ends the second he backs down, because he has no other actual appeal than scratching the resentment itch.
posted by msalt at 3:48 PM on November 14 [3 favorites]


New FOX10 News/Strategy Research Alabama poll has Moore +6. Heckuva job alabama.
posted by Justinian at 3:54 PM on November 14 [4 favorites]


A non-zero portion of the Republican base thinks that Charlottesville was a false flag operation with agitators paid by George Soros. This isn't a stretch for those people.

Well sure, but those people are a lost cause anyhow because literally nothing anyone anywhere could say or do would convince them not to vote for Moore. So the Bernie Bernstein crap is just preaching to the choir for them, i.e., pissing away money for no electoral gain.

And any Republican with half a brain (which, I grant you, appears to be a smaller and smaller segment of the electorate each day) is not going to fall for it.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:56 PM on November 14


Trendlines, tho:
Of those who indicated they would vote in the December 12 election, Moore lost 3 percentage points from the poll two weeks ago while Jones showed a 2 percent increase in support. Undecided voters went from 7 percent to 8 percent.

Among typical Republican voters, Moore showed an 8 percent loss of support from our latest FOX10 News poll two weeks ago while Jones picked up 3 percent.
posted by Chrysostom at 3:57 PM on November 14 [1 favorite]


48% of Republicans say being (accused of being) a child molester makes them more likely to vote for Moore. 48%.
posted by Justinian at 4:01 PM on November 14 [26 favorites]


When Moore wins, instead of a victory speech, he's going to come out of the fog machines with two tablets, smash them to the ground and say "IS EVERYONE READY FOR PEDOPPPPPPPPHIIIIIIIIIIIILIAAAAAAAAAAA"
posted by Yowser at 4:01 PM on November 14 [7 favorites]


Among typical Republican voters, Moore showed an 8 percent loss of support from our latest FOX10 News poll two weeks ago while Jones picked up 3 percent.

3% of Republican voters will vote for the other guy if their guy turns out to be a violent child molester.
posted by Rust Moranis at 4:04 PM on November 14 [7 favorites]


And any Republican with half a brain (which, I grant you, appears to be a smaller and smaller segment of the electorate each day) is not going to fall for it.

Someone once made the observation that you could put half of these people into a basket of deplorables.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 4:13 PM on November 14 [20 favorites]


It's been made clear since then that the true fraction is closer to 75 or even 80%.
posted by Justinian at 4:14 PM on November 14 [9 favorites]


Roy Moore was already such a complete shitstain it's honestly no wonder that his support among Republicans is basically unchanged.

What if you found out that Ebola not only caused you to bleed out of every available orifice and probably die, it also caused severe stomach pain? Is that going to move the needle?
posted by 0xFCAF at 4:16 PM on November 14 [4 favorites]




It's been made clear since then that the true fraction is closer to 75 or even 80%.

Yep, turns out her mistake wasn't terminology or sentiment, it was underestimation.
posted by chris24 at 4:23 PM on November 14 [5 favorites]


Shalom! This is George Soros. I'd like to give you $100,000 dollars. All you have to do is pretend that Roy Moore--who is really nice guy, a good Christian and a lover of of the second ammendment-- once touched you inappropriate ly-- which he would never actually do!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:23 PM on November 14 [6 favorites]


Guardian: Roy Moore challenged Alabama law that protects rape victims, documents reveal
A review by the Guardian of all decisions issued by the Alabama supreme court during Moore’s second stint found decisions on 16 criminal cases that involved alleged sexual crimes. Moore sided with the offender over state prosecutors in 13 of those cases.

On 10 occasions, this meant dissenting from the majority view of the court’s nine judges. Moore sided with the state in the other three cases.

Among Moore’s 10 dissents was the case of David Pittman, who had pleaded guilty to the rape of a 12-year-old girl. Moore in September 2015 said that Pittman ought to have been allowed to present evidence to court indicating that the girl had been sexually active and had a sexually transmitted disease.

“I believe this evidence could be relevant to the complaining witness’s alleged motive in accusing Pittman and that it is not barred by … the rape-shield rule,” Moore wrote in his dissent.

Like other states, Alabama has a law generally barring defendants accused of sexual assaults from using evidence relating to their accuser’s sexual history. Alabama’s law includes an exception that says evidence can be used if “excluding it would violate the defendant’s constitutional rights”. Moore argued that Pittman was being denied his right to be confronted by any witnesses testifying against him.

The rape-shield law also arose in the case of Sherman Tate, a school mentor who was convicted of coercing two 15-year-old female students to touch him sexually. Moore argued in June 2014 that attorneys for Tate should have been allowed to tell jurors that he believed the girls were bisexual and in a relationship together.

Moore said evidence of a relationship between the teenage girls “could be relevant to the victims’ alleged bias against Tate or their collusion” and that this should not be barred by the state’s rape-shield rules.

He argued in his dissent that while the rape-shield law bars discussion of an alleged victim’s sexual history with other people, it “does not bar cross-examination regarding a victim’s romantic relationship or even sexual behavior with another complaining victim”.

An appeals court had already described Tate’s theory about his accusers’ sexual arrangements as “at best, speculative” and said it would have “confused the jury by diverting its attention to issues that were not germane to this trial.”
posted by chris24 at 4:28 PM on November 14 [31 favorites]


Like other states, Alabama has a law generally barring defendants accused of sexual assaults from using evidence relating to their accuser’s sexual history.

This is my surprised face.
posted by acb at 4:33 PM on November 14


Roy Moore's wife Kayla was a classmate of accuser Beverly Young Nelson

Kayla Moore, of whom he has said, "We met when she was 23, but I had my eye on her many years earlier"? That wife? All righty then.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:41 PM on November 14 [10 favorites]


For fucks sake...

How is he so bad at this and yet never caught? How?
posted by Artw at 4:42 PM on November 14 [2 favorites]


patriarchy.
posted by murphy slaw at 4:54 PM on November 14 [11 favorites]


How do people sexually abuse children/teens in their own house and not get caught by the other adult(s) living there? Wilful blindness, denial, etc.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:56 PM on November 14 [2 favorites]


As the "banned from the mall" statements show, he WAS caught, in the behavior pattern if not in the sexual assault itself.

And it didn't matter for decades.
posted by delfin at 5:01 PM on November 14 [1 favorite]



posted by
rdr at 5:03 PM on November 14 [2 favorites]


How to pick your fake Jewish Alabama robocall name:

First name: Pick any name from the Amidah, or either Cohen or Levi.

Last name: Take the same name and add one of the following suffixes:-stein, -burg, -gold, -sky, -vitz.

I’m Jacob Jacobvitz!
posted by leotrotsky at 5:04 PM on November 14 [3 favorites]


WKRG now has the audio of the call. It's even less subtle when you hear it, that accent.

(Don't read the comments)
posted by zachlipton at 5:07 PM on November 14 [1 favorite]


The accent really does give it that little extra something. Jesus. Or, uh, Oy Vey I guess.
posted by Justinian at 5:09 PM on November 14 [5 favorites]


i read the comments
posted by Rust Moranis at 5:10 PM on November 14 [3 favorites]




delfin: "As the "banned from the mall" statements show, he WAS caught, in the behavior pattern if not in the sexual assault itself."

Yeah, and that's the thing about any "it was a different time" counter-arguments. Even the people at the time -- specifically the Gadsden mall management and/or security -- found him very skeezy. I mean, think about it. This wasn't a bunch of rowdy teens. The mall banned an assistant district attorney. How sketchy do you have to be as an ADA to get banned from the mall in the 1980s?
posted by mhum at 5:14 PM on November 14 [28 favorites]


My husband would never have hit on anyone 15 or 16 years younger than he was when he was in his 30s and it's sick that people would make such outrageous claims! cries Kayla Moore who is only 14 years younger than Moore and married him while he was in his 30s.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 5:15 PM on November 14 [11 favorites]


Moore scandal raises new doubts about Bannon

FOX NEWS HALFTIME REPORT Published November 10, 2017


Oh dear the link to Faux News must have disappeared. Ach, well let's crack on:

Steve Bannon’s urging that Alabama Republicans throw aside an incumbent Republican with a perfect voting record on the president’s issues in favor of former Judge Roy Moore was dubious even before allegations of sexual misconduct with teenagers emerged against now-nominee Moore.

I'm no expert on reading the Nutzi tea leaves, but this must mean something. Fox and Breichbart squaring off? Four days ago? *shrug* Does it come with free popcorn?
posted by petebest at 5:39 PM on November 14 [2 favorites]


Bernie Bernstein?
posted by zarq at 5:44 PM on November 14




How sketchy do you have to be as an ADA to get banned from the mall in the 1980s?

Life imitates Porky's II: The Next Day.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:00 PM on November 14 [5 favorites]


I'm no expert on reading the Nutzi tea leaves, but this must mean something. Fox and Breichbart squaring off? Four days ago?

Fox and the general altrightyconservosphere (Breitbart, freep, Numberchan-slash-shitlords, etc) have had a fault line organically engineered and reinforced between them for awhile. In the run up to November last year when everyone from the Russians downwards expected Trump to lose, one of the narratives bubbling around the fever swamp corners was that Fox was kind of disgusting and we hates it precious because it wasn't truly conservative (RINO is the gift that keeps giving) etc. This was probably originally intended to be amplified and leveraged to help launch a Trump News Network Where Real America Gets Real News after the non-conceding loss (just close your eyes and you can see the opening graphics and bombastic music from the channel in that alternate timeline: "TNN: Real America, Real Truth, Never Conceding!" or similar). (What, are they going to launch by cannibalizing any other networks' viewers? It had to be Fox whipping up We Hate Them Now And In Fact Always Did! sentiment about.)

But surprise! That fault line was quieted down again following the election results. But it's still there, waiting to blow.
posted by Drastic at 6:17 PM on November 14 [5 favorites]


Just wrote another 10 postcards for Doug Jones while waiting at the car wash. It really is quite therapeutic -- feels like something real and tangible to do in the face of real and tangible evil.
posted by WidgetAlley at 6:20 PM on November 14 [7 favorites]


You're right about that, WidgetAlley. I just finished my first one, but I feel a wee smidgen better already.
posted by nat at 6:25 PM on November 14 [3 favorites]


Hannity is eyeballing that nice warm clear water over the side of the ship.


posted by
Bovine Love at 7:57 PM on November 14 [7 favorites]


Big shout out to all the other Postcards To Voters writers! That’s the civic engagement I find most meaningful right now. I have excellent senators who are showing the right stuff and a dipped in the blood of Fox News rep who will NEVER do the right thing. So - while I contact them all on occasion it doesn’t give me the same emotional sustenance that sending out postcards for Democratic candidates does.

And writing for Doug Jones right now really makes me happy.
posted by hilaryjade at 8:20 PM on November 14 [1 favorite]


well, that does it then. roy moore is willing to tell the senate majority leader to go slam his balls in a car door, but if sean hannity needs an explanation, this will get cleared up pronto!
posted by murphy slaw at 8:23 PM on November 14 [7 favorites]


CODE MILO! CODE MILO!
posted by Artw at 8:27 PM on November 14 [2 favorites]


Following Cook Political's move earlier today, Gonzales moves AL Sen to Toss-up.

No change from Sabato yet.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:29 PM on November 14 [1 favorite]


This can and should be thrown in the faces of every Republican whenever they rant about Islam. Christianity; it's a fucking religion, what did you expect?

(atheism also sucks, stfu skeptics)
posted by Yowser at 8:30 PM on November 14 [1 favorite]


roy moore is willing to tell the senate majority leader to go slam his balls in a car door

See, even the worst living person on the face of the fucking earth has ONE admirable feature!
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:32 PM on November 14 [6 favorites]


Hey, we found someone to defend Moore! Danny Tarkanian (he's primarying Heller in NV) says, "I see no reason to abandon Judge Moore at this time."

It's a bold strategy, Danny.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:41 PM on November 14


An ad for The "Olde" Hickory House in question. Bar-B-Q salad only $1.45.
posted by clawsoon at 8:47 PM on November 14


So, Moore had a lawyer send a demand letter to AL.com. It's...it's not written real well.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:50 PM on November 14 [10 favorites]


That letter is straight bonkers.

Think about all the lawyers a state supreme court justice must know, and thats the best he could do?
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:55 PM on November 14 [9 favorites]


Hannity 4 days ago: What's wrong with a consenting relationship with a 14 year old?
Hannity 3 days ago: You're innocent, right Roy? [Roy, in reply: "I am something of a sexual abuser of children."]
Hannity 2 days ago: We are under attack by swamp monsters.
Hannity 1 day ago: "Please stop smashing your Keurigs." [quote]
Hannity Today: Starting to think this Moore guy is some kind of jerk.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:56 PM on November 14 [23 favorites]


I love that so many of the lawyers around Trumpists (and that weird doctor of Trump's) have "enabler" as their primary qualification, with like actual competency waaaay down the list. Grifters grifting grifters, all the way down.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:57 PM on November 14 [4 favorites]


I like how he's been accused of, broadly, using his non-profit foundation as a personal piggy bank, but he's hired a lawyer who says he represents both him and the foundation, and is sending a demand letter addressing both personal and foundation issues. I hope someone is looking into whether the foundation paid the lawyer to make threats regarding Moore's personal conduct.
posted by zachlipton at 8:57 PM on November 14 [7 favorites]


That letter is straight bonkers.

Think about all the lawyers a state supreme court justice must know, and thats the best he could do?


The constant blizzard of crazy has made me forget -- who was it who had the wacko lawyer (not Ty Cobb, another one) over the summer who was like an 18th century cosplayer with a teeny little Fotomat (god I'm old) sized law office in the middle of a strip mall parking lot?

I'm feeling like it was the lawyer of one of the Charlottesville Nazis?, but that may be dead wrong. Anyhow, my point is, there seems to be an ample supply of truly shitty weird attorneys out there ready to pen illiterate demand letters at a moment's notice.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:14 PM on November 14


Interestingly, that lawyer previously had his license suspended.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:16 PM on November 14




Oh right, yeah. It was the Crying Nazi's Lawyer!
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:17 PM on November 14 [1 favorite]


Right, Weepin' Wehrmacht Christopher Cantwell, who because we live in the worst timeline has had all but 1 charge dismissed.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:18 PM on November 14 [4 favorites]


I love that so many of the lawyers around Trumpists (and that weird doctor of Trump's) have "enabler" as their primary qualification, with like actual competency waaaay down the list. Grifters grifting grifters, all the way down.

These guys are the cream of the creeps. I suppose every century or so this group gets their shit together enough to get into position to blow it.
posted by rhizome at 9:20 PM on November 14 [3 favorites]


You know, you would really expect a former state supreme court chief justice to have a lawyer of at least middling quality.
posted by zachlipton at 9:46 PM on November 14


Roy Moore was already such a complete shitstain it's honestly no wonder that his support among Republicans is basically unchanged.

What if you found out that Ebola not only caused you to bleed out of every available orifice and probably die, it also caused severe stomach pain? Is that going to move the needle?


Will this strain of Ebola really drive liberals crazy? Really frustrate the mainstream media? Get Hollywood in a twist? Get DC elites to stop looking down on us good 'ol folk and claiming they know better with there educations?

If so, it can win a Republican primary!
posted by wildblueyonder at 9:47 PM on November 14 [2 favorites]


It's Alabama. A state supreme court chief justice doesn't need to BE a lawyer of at least middling quality.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:49 PM on November 14 [2 favorites]


You know, you would really expect a former state supreme court chief justice to have a lawyer of at least middling quality.

To be fair, the lawyer doesn't have to impress your average state supreme court chief justice, just state supreme court chief justice Roy goddamn Moore. Probably a low bar.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:51 PM on November 14


Bernie Bernstein?

No, even better: Lenny Bernstein! If you listen to the audio, you can hear him give his email address as [email protected]

And the accent?

"Hey, can you do a New York City accent?"
"It that the place where they say 'pahk the cah?' Jew betcha! Ha ha get it?"
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:03 PM on November 14 [1 favorite]


I can only hope someone at Zionist Organization of America is feeling some teeny, tiny ounce of shame at what they've enabled.
posted by Yowser at 10:11 PM on November 14 [2 favorites]


Lenny Bernstein is an actual reporter at WaPo (health & medicine). The scummies must have searched for "Washington Post Reporter Jewish" on google or similar and looked for someone with a stereotypical name. I can't decide if that's better or worse than making it up? Worse, probably, since they were implicating a real guy.
posted by Justinian at 10:25 PM on November 14 [6 favorites]


So, Moore had a lawyer send a demand letter to AL.com. It's...it's not written real well.

The language is so odd -- it feels like a Google Translate from some other language. Hard to say which, but I'm getting a sense of, I dunno, something Slavic maybe?
posted by msalt at 11:34 PM on November 14 [2 favorites]


48% of Republicans say being (accused of being) a child molester makes them more likely to vote for Moore. 48%.

I don't think it makes it much better, but I did want to say this is a misleading stat. Those 48% are likely saying one of a few things:

(1) He didn't do it and this is a conspiracy to take him down. That people are making these accusations proves he's righteous so he has my vote.

(2) He's my guy and I don't care what he's done that's not gonna change. To hell with you for asking. Make me vote for him less? No, now I vote for him more.

Like I said, I don't think it's much better. But I don't think they actually support child molestation. They're just so deep in tribalism/irrationality they don't care/refuse to believe.
posted by kingjoeshmoe at 11:49 PM on November 14 [1 favorite]


Sure, I understand what supposed reasoning they would give for their answer, and the justifications for it. Willful blindness does not absolve them of culpability in my opinion. That they would say they don't support child molestation isn't dispositive because...

But I don't think they actually support child molestation

If they vote for Moore they quite literally support child molestation. No reasonable person could listen/watch the evidence we've seen and heard and believe Moore was not a predatory monster.
posted by Justinian at 12:09 AM on November 15 [3 favorites]


But I don't think they actually support child molestation

Thing is, I think most people don't care whether you're a child molester OR you're just standing WITH a child molester. Most people would leave the presence of a child molester upon learning of their presence.

That's what *I* think. What I think turns out to be incorrect with startling frequency. Mileage varies.
posted by mikelieman at 2:15 AM on November 15 [2 favorites]


Nervous. I'm feeling like a lot of people are going to make the calculation "We'll vote R on the ballot knowing the child molester we don't support will be expelled, then a better Republican will be appointed or special-elected. I don't support what he did, but Someone Else who is Republican is better than a Democrat."
posted by floam at 2:16 AM on November 15


I'm feeling like a lot of people are going to make the calculation "We'll vote R on the ballot knowing the child molester we don't support will be expelled, then a better Republican will be appointed. I don't support what he did, but Someone Else who is Republican is better than a Democrat." and this whole thing will just suck.

Obvious flaw in that is the lack of vertebrates in the Senate. When it's time to act, much concern will be displayed. It will suck greatly. And scene.
posted by mikelieman at 2:21 AM on November 15 [1 favorite]


(sorry, I edited that message before you quoted.)
posted by floam at 2:22 AM on November 15


How would they run a "Vote for Moore but not really because we're going to replace him" campaign? To start with, a lot of people would be confused. And then, how likely is it that Moore would consent to it? It's not going to work if the nominal candidate keeps saying he won't be replaced.

All these mooted tactics look like certain failure. A write-in campaign will split the vote; a "Moore but not really" campaign will just dishearten voters. I think the Republicans are screwed if they do anything other than run a campaign that at least pretends Moore will be seated, and if the stench is bad enough then that won't work either.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:40 AM on November 15


It's obvious the GOP is trying to trick Alabamans into voting for Moore with this whole "we'll expel him using this One Magic Trick."
posted by Yowser at 2:42 AM on November 15


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